under saddle transducers and tone

dmoss74 · #1 02-25-2010, 11:46 PM

so, do you think they rob the guitar of some tone it would otherwise have without them being under there?

ljguitar · #2 02-25-2010, 11:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dmoss74

so, do you think they rob the guitar of some tone it would otherwise have without them being under there?

Hi dmoss…
Not if they are properly installed.

#3 02-26-2010, 12:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dmoss74

so, do you think they rob the guitar of some tone it would otherwise have without them being under there?

Not at all. I've had a couple of pickups installed on acoustics in the past and it didn't change their living room sound a whit.

Mike_A · #4 02-26-2010, 12:28 AM

they probably change the tone a tiny wee bit, what would you expect when you sandwich that metal piezo thingy in there? BUT it must be so negligible, most people dont hear it, i don't.

Kent Chasson · #5 02-26-2010, 01:09 AM

It's been my experience that, due to the torque on the saddle, the bulk of the coupling between the saddle and bridge actually happens between the faces of the saddle and saddle slot, not the bottom of the saddle and saddle slot.

I've never noticed any loss from adding a transducer (or shim) under a saddle. A more typical problem is not getting enough coupling between the saddle and the transducer causing weak or uneven signal.

JLS · #6 02-26-2010, 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dmoss74

so, do you think they rob the guitar of some tone it would otherwise have without them being under there?

A properly fitted saddle is tight enough to pick up an unstrung guitar, with a pair of pliers. USTs, or, "quacksticks", necessitate a looser saddle fit.

alohachris · #7 02-26-2010, 12:22 PM

Aloha,

The only time when a UST alters (i.e. completely kills) the natural tone of an acoustic guitar is when it's plugged in.

OF course, if your saddle is made of something other than bone, the unplugged tone has room for improvement, with or without the UST.

alohachris

isiton212 · #8 02-26-2010, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alohachris

The only time when a UST alters (i.e. completely kills) the natural tone of an acoustic guitar is when it's plugged in.

Forgive my naivety here but are you being poetic, and referring to the quality of the amplified sound, or are you suggesting that merely having the thing switched on (eg recording) somehow affects the acoustic response of the guitar?

BuleriaChk · #9 02-26-2010, 05:40 PM

Nah, he just hasn't discovered Takamine guitars yet...

BoB/335 · #10 02-26-2010, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by isiton212

Forgive my naivety here but are you being poetic, and referring to the quality of the amplified sound, or are you suggesting that merely having the thing switched on (eg recording) somehow affects the acoustic response of the guitar?

There are some who think that there is no possible good from a UST. It's just that I have such a hard time convincing people of that everytime I play my Collings (with a Fishman Matrix 2 that came with this used guitar) out!

alohachris · #11 02-26-2010, 07:02 PM

Yeah Bob,

You just keep on beating that Matrix 2 out there on Longgggisland, brah. That's a real, single pickup, natural acoustic sound right there. No ear fatigue at the end of the night, Bob, noooooo.. Sure......

My point is that after 30 years of gigging with UST's, (Yes Bob, even using Matrix I's, II's and Takamine's), I can no longer stand them at all, especially when there are much better options and combos availaible for my purposes. I used to cockroach early UST Takemine pickups in the 70's and add Sony lapel mics for a pioneer dual source system of sorts.

I can't tell you how many times I've left the gigs of really great players out here because my ears simply couldn't stand listening to that UST edge, quackiness, over-driven compression or the extreme ear fatigue induced by single UST pickups & crappy amps or PA's..

If you at least add an external mic and push the blend in its favor, then maybe it could be palatable, but only if you EQ the UST for bass frequencies and nothing more.

Somehow, some just can't hear the difference - especially those who are primarily electric guitar players.

alohachris

But, What About Bob?

BuleriaChk · #12 02-26-2010, 07:08 PM

Myself, my ears can't stand the sound of the natural guitar, especially when mic'd through Daedalus speakers.... I've had to walk out on so many of those concerts, that they won't even sell me tickets to them any more.....

Quote:

Originally Posted by alohachris

I can't tell you how many times I left the gigs of really great players because my ears simply couldn't stand that UST edge or extremely ear fatigue induced by single UST pickups.

alohachris

BoB/335 · #13 02-26-2010, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alohachris

Yeah Bob,

You just keep on beating that Matrix 2 out there, brah. That's a real natural sound right there. No ear fatigue there at the end of the night, noooooo.. Sure......

My point is that after 30 years of gigging with 'em, (Yes Bob, even using Matrix II and Takamines), I can no longer stand them, especially when there are much better options and combos availaible for my purposes.

I can't tell you how many times I left the gigs of really great players because my ears simply couldn't stand that UST edge or extremely ear fatigue induced by single UST pickups.

If you at least add an external mic and push the blend in its fravor, then maybe it could be palatable if you only use the UST for bass frequencies and nothing more.

Somehow, some just can't hear the difference - especially those who are primarily electric guitar players.

alohachris

Well, I might be an electric guitar player. I'll have to tell all those great acoustic players that my guitar really doesn't sound all that great and that they should probably get their hearing checked.

SpruceTop · #14 02-26-2010, 07:30 PM

UST pickups, nowadays, are best utilized as triggers aka feeds for a Fishman Aura system. In this usage, there isn't any or very little quack or any other weird noises in the amplified mix. A UST, on its own, can have some rather noisome amplified nuances. My question to anyone is: Why would you install a UST unless you were going to use it in conjunction with a Fishman Aura device?

Regards,

SpruceTop

alohachris · #15 02-26-2010, 07:55 PM

All Right, All Right. I deserved it! Keep it coming. Please! All week long people here on Oahu (still) at work are just so civil and nice to me. I mean, this IS the Aloha State and the people are just too polite. As a former NYC type sometimes, I just can't stand that!!!! I need your abuse, desperately!

So please, Buleria, I know, isn't that jag off touting Daed's just such an elitist, know it all pig, rubbing it in our faces in this joke of an economy? Those things suck.

Ditto mic'ed guitars for live applications. Doesn't aloha know that those things automatically feedback in live venues and that dual source systems are totally unnecessary - that the audience won't care or notice?!? So what!

And BS aloha, 46 years of gigging? What kind of life musn't you have to check in here at this esteemed site from time to time and try to challenge the conventional wisdom like about line arrays?!? Go On - Admit It! Kramsters great SA/BA/Bose shoot out shot the s*&t right out of any enthusiasm I might have had for those POS's -I mean line arrays - all based on sound, or lack thereof.

Who gigs for 46 years? (good question!). C'mon Bob. Have my ears checked? That's the best a Long Island boy can do for a former Rockville Centre boy? Give me the full force of your Insult Comic wit, out there!

I NEED THIS!

alohachris