Do you ever record a long song in sections?

[KevWind]

Ha just realized I have been thinking about recording Canadian Railroad Trilogy
Might be a good one try section at a time and some auto punch in

[rick-slo]

In William Coulter’s arrangement of Si Bheag Si Mhor sections are repeated three times. There is around a minute
and a quarter per repeat and minor embellishments here and there. The length of the recording issue is less about
memory and more about some playing flub.

Pretty hard to divide one recording into different days. Hard to get the same sound and to be in the same state of
mind to play the same.

Usually I warm up with a piece for awhile before starting to record to decide on a specific tempo, what variations
(always changing things around a bit in my own compositions) to use, and if there are playing and tonal glitches
(perhaps just less than ideal fingernails that day). Then I may start a recording.

[jim1960]

Originally Posted by j3ffr0

it's a wonderful technique that can save you a lot of time and frustration

Yup. And there it is in the size it deserves.

Originally Posted by rick-slo

Pretty hard to divide one recording into different days. Hard to get the same sound and to be in the same state of
mind to play the same.

It's **** near impossible. I tried it a few time years ago and it seems that matching the tonal quality is an unreachable goal. If you can't get it all done in one day, you really have to start over on another day.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by jim1960

It's **** near impossible. I tried it a few time years ago and it seems that matching the tonal quality is an unreachable goal. If you can't get it all done in one day, you really have to start over on another day.

Robin Bullock advocates changing strings right before you record. His theory is that even a day's worth of playing on strings changes the sound, so that way if he wants to come back and punch in, he can again change strings and know they'll match. Not sure what his solution is to mic placement, nail length, humidity, mood, phase of the moon, etc. I've also heard Tommy Emmanuel say he changes strings for every tune when he's recording, tho I'm not sure it's for that reason. I've never tried to edit between sessions that I can recall.

[TBman]

I do it all the time.

I can't memorize much any more so I'll record the 1st two pages, then the last 1 or 2. I'll do them all in one recording session though without moving the mics, or me for that matter. I'll do several recordings of each 2 page section, and for each one I will give a verbal description of it at the beginning - part 1, part 2 etc, which I cut out when I splice the parts together.

I do my splicing, editing and noise reduction in Rx 7 Standard, then I'll "EQ" in Reaper.

[Glennwillow]

Do you ever record a long song in sections?

I never have. I record stuff front to back. I even do this when I am adding a bass guitar or a second or lead guitar to an already existing recording. I know I don't have to do this, that I could do whatever digital editing I need to do to avoid perfection in one long take, but I tend to feel like I should do it as a performance.

I started a project probably two years ago to do Gordon Lightfoot's "Canadian Railroad Trilogy." The song is more than 10 minutes long, going from one tempo to another, one time signature to another, and the song is so darn long that it's really fatiguing. I thought I had a good take on the song in one front-to-back live recording on video, but when I went back to watch it later, I realized that I lost energy in the back part of the song. I was so dissatisfied with my performance that I just left it, never went back to it.

I have thought, "I should do this song in pieces so I can keep up the energy," but I have never gone back to it. I'm pretty sure I could make this look seamless, even with video, but I just can't make myself do it. It seems like cheating.

I don't care if anyone else patches their stuff together. I just can't seem to make myself do it. I guess if I had a schedule to maintain because I was being paid, I would do what I had to do. But I am making music just for the fun and love of it. I still treat myself as if I'm a performing musician.

- Glenn

Back in the days of analog there was razor blades and tape...

[keith.rogers]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

Robin Bullock advocates changing strings right before you record. His theory is that even a day's worth of playing on strings changes the sound, so that way if he wants to come back and punch in, he can again change strings and know they'll match. Not sure what his solution is to mic placement, nail length, humidity, mood, phase of the moon, etc. I've also heard Tommy Emmanuel say he changes strings for every tune when he's recording, tho I'm not sure it's for that reason. I've never tried to edit between sessions that I can recall.

I never start with brand new strings, and generally record with strings that have been on long enough I don't really hear a difference in a day but I can be sure they're not on the edge of going false; but, still, it's really hard, even if I leave the mics up. I think everything can make a difference with acoustic guitars - humidity, temperature, the clothes you have on, the angle of the sun, how much you weigh, whatever. If I listen the next day and can't pick out something I can live with, I do start over. It's always for the best.

[islandguitar]

I too share Glenn's approach. Although I admit to have "punched in" just a very few times with my tunes over the years. Of the songs I've presented on Soundcloud of via CD, perhaps in two to three tunes. The rest are best single takes from a any one recording session.

For me it's a matter of "performance ready" and I guess the challenge of it all! I'll take a lot of time with something before I record, so I'm pretty patient and don't rush into things. That said, I'll also share that only a very few times have I felt that I nailed a take that was 100% of what I aspired to. Always those little places that could have been a bit better, a phrase, a note made more clear, a passage or message that needed just a little more. Of course I realize the listener may not hear that in the final product!

But I'm comfortable with that and think the value of the "live" take brings a kind of authenticity in the moment that is personally satisfying. Though, I full appreciate and respect the different approaches to this.

[Glennwillow]

Digital recording is very cool in a lot of ways.

I have done 3 CD album projects for a very accomplished pianist at a local church in town using a 1928 Steinway grand in the church. The piano is in beautiful shape and sounds fantastic, and she is so good, a super expressive piano player. The challenge in this church is that it's on a busy intersection in town and getting through even a 2 or 3 minute piece on the piano can be very hard without picking up some traffic noise. We would meet very early in the morning, often 5 AM on a Saturday, to record for a couple of hours when traffic noise was at a minimum. She is so good that she almost never has to start a piece over.

I remember thinking I had all the pieces for the album complete and I was going over them carefully and found some traffic noise right near the end of one of the songs. I had maybe 4 or 5 takes of each piece recorded and she had picked out the versions she was most satisfied with. And yet here was traffic noise right at the end of this gorgeous rendition.

So I found another take of the piece and laid it onto a couple of nearby tracks and found that the ending was nice and quiet. So I cut the ending on that take and patched it into the best take. In this case it didn't work all that well because the feel for this 2nd take was different, done on a different day when she was in a different mood. So I hunted around for a take that had a similar feel and attack on the keys, and then when I patched that ending in, it sounded right. You couldn't tell that I had made this "repair" at all.

I asked the pianist to review what I had done to make sure she was okay with the fix, and she was. She couldn't hear where I fixed the traffic problem at all.

Since then on the other albums I had to fix a problem here or there for the same kinds of problems. Noise in a church like that is such a problem. But all the songs on all the albums sound very quiet. Nobody knows that in a few places I had to patch in a part of a different take of the same piece because of the early morning trucks out on the street.

- Glenn

[TBman]

Originally Posted by Glennwillow

Digital recording is very cool in a lot of ways.

I have done 3 CD album projects for a very accomplished pianist at a local church in town using a 1928 Steinway grand in the church. The piano is in beautiful shape and sounds fantastic, and she is so good, a super expressive piano player. The challenge in this church is that it's on a busy intersection in town and getting through even a 2 or 3 minute piece on the piano can be very hard without picking up some traffic noise. We would meet very early in the morning, often 5 AM on a Saturday, to record for a couple of hours when traffic noise was at a minimum. She is so good that she almost never has to start a piece over.

I remember thinking I had all the pieces for the album complete and I was going over them carefully and found some traffic noise right near the end of one of the songs. I had maybe 4 or 5 takes of each piece recorded and she had picked out the versions she was most satisfied with. And yet here was traffic noise right at the end of this gorgeous rendition.

So I found another take of the piece and laid it onto a couple of nearby tracks and found that the ending was nice and quiet. So I cut the ending on that take and patched it into the best take. In this case it didn't work all that well because the feel for this 2nd take was different, done on a different day when she was in a different mood. So I hunted around for a take that had a similar feel and attack on the keys, and then when I patched that ending in, it sounded right. You couldn't tell that I had made this "repair" at all.

I asked the pianist to review what I had done to make sure she was okay with the fix, and she was. She couldn't hear where I fixed the traffic problem at all.

Since then on the other albums I had to fix a problem here or there for the same kinds of problems. Noise in a church like that is such a problem. But all the songs on all the albums sound very quiet. Nobody knows that in a few places I had to patch in a part of a different take of the same piece because of the early morning trucks out on the street.

- Glenn

Glenn, what you outlined above is another reason why I will record in sections for many tunes I record. I record in a spare bedroom. Trying to record a 4 page piece while hoping the dogs don't start chasing each other (for example) in the hallway adjacent to my "studio" adds a tension to my hobby that I don't want. I'd rather just relax, play and enjoy myself for the recording. So if I just record 2 pages at a time I don't get overly upset if an external noise ruins part of the recording.

[SprintBob]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

In William Coulter’s arrangement of Si Bheag Si Mhor sections are repeated three times. There is around a minute
and a quarter per repeat and minor embellishments here and there. The length of the recording issue is less about
memory and more about some playing flub.

Pretty hard to divide one recording into different days. Hard to get the same sound and to be in the same state of
mind to play the same.

Usually I warm up with a piece for awhile before starting to record to decide on a specific tempo, what variations
(always changing things around a bit in my own compositions) to use, and if there are playing and tonal glitches
(perhaps just less than ideal fingernails that day). Then I may start a recording.

I agree that if you do record the song in sections you need to try to do it all on the same day. Coulter’s arrangement has sections that have some cool nuances that (at least for this player) require some focus. I love the challenge of playing this version of the song.

Originally Posted by Glennwillow

Do you ever record a long song in sections?

I never have. I record stuff front to back. I even do this when I am adding a bass guitar or a second or lead guitar to an already existing recording. I know I don't have to do this, that I could do whatever digital editing I need to do to avoid perfection in one long take, but I tend to feel like I should do it as a performance.

I started a project probably two years ago to do Gordon Lightfoot's "Canadian Railroad Trilogy." The song is more than 10 minutes long, going from one tempo to another, one time signature to another, and the song is so darn long that it's really fatiguing. I thought I had a good take on the song in one front-to-back live recording on video, but when I went back to watch it later, I realized that I lost energy in the back part of the song. I was so dissatisfied with my performance that I just left it, never went back to it.

I have thought, "I should do this song in pieces so I can keep up the energy," but I have never gone back to it. I'm pretty sure I could make this look seamless, even with video, but I just can't make myself do it. It seems like cheating.

I don't care if anyone else patches their stuff together. I just can't seem to make myself do it. I guess if I had a schedule to maintain because I was being paid, I would do what I had to do. But I am making music just for the fun and love of it. I still treat myself as if I'm a performing musician.

- Glenn

I hear you Glenn and I had the same thought that it is kind of like a cheat. I do enjoy the challenge of getting it all in one take.

Originally Posted by TBman

Glenn, what you outlined above is another reason why I will record in sections for many tunes I record. I record in a spare bedroom. Trying to record a 4 page piece while hoping the dogs don't start chasing each other (for example) in the hallway adjacent to my "studio" adds a tension to my hobby that I don't want. I'd rather just relax, play and enjoy myself for the recording. So if I just record 2 pages at a time I don't get overly upset if an external noise ruins part of the recording.

And I can sometimes have the same issues if my wife is at home. I can get a quiet environment after she goes to bed which is usually 9ish PM so I have to have the energy to stay up.

[jim1960]

Originally Posted by Glennwillow

I have thought, "I should do this song in pieces so I can keep up the energy," but I have never gone back to it. I'm pretty sure I could make this look seamless, even with video, but I just can't make myself do it. It seems like cheating.

I don't care if anyone else patches their stuff together. I just can't seem to make myself do it. I guess if I had a schedule to maintain because I was being paid, I would do what I had to do. But I am making music just for the fun and love of it. I still treat myself as if I'm a performing musician.

To my thinking, recording and playing live are entirely different animals. I don't concern myself with little mistakes when playing live because those mistakes are simply mistakes in the moment. The people at the show are going to forget they heard them before I even finish the song. Mistakes on a recording are there for the long run. Those mistakes will hit people's ears over and over and over again so they're more critical than mistakes on stage.

I think of myself primarily as a songwriter and when I put something out there, I want it to be the best possible representation of that song I wrote. Outside of my own thoughts, no one is going to know if I did a piece in one take, no one is going to care if I did a piece in one take. They're going to assess whether the song is worth listening to again. So for me, composite tracking has always been the preferred method.

Lastly, the word "cheating" implies some rule was broken. This is music. By now we all know there are no rules. There's nothing illegitimate about comping. It's simply a way to get to the best possible end point.

Anyway... this is just my alternative viewpoint. I appreciate your work, Glenn, do please don't take this as anything more as a different way of looking at it.

[min7b5]

On my Different Kind Of Blue album, the last track, Flamenco Sketches, was five sections stitched together. So the original was a really a Bill Evans tune, though copy-written as Miles Davis, that was about the group just improvising over five basically unrelated modes he had jotted down, for as long as they chose before moving onto next soloist. So my 18 minute track was put together five sections of jamming in each mode, that was from one forty-five minute take of improv that included stopping and changing tunings and capo locations a few times, that I later put together as one piece by just finding a break between chords, or maybe a slide down.. I'm pretty sure I remember having a click track for that..

Then a few years later I made an album with mandolinist Tim Connell, June Apple, that was all recorded in one day (to two-inch tape, then dumped to ProTools) but recorded each tune three times. I ended up using the first half of one take with second of another, etc, for many of them. Or maybe just a chorus of one if there was clam. The problem with editing a album that is mostly improv is you're not just no going to find that one phrase anywhere else, and even if you did, for sure the other person if playing something very different too.. so you really have to just replace a whole section, in that case minimal 8 bar section.

Lastly, the same year as June Apple, and I recorded the Artifact I did with Mark Goldenberg in Los Angeles. That whole album was just one continuous take (minus one potty break) of 90% improvised music. But we went extra long on each tune, so even though there was no other take to borrow from, on a few tunes we just cut out an entire chorus, or two, and I think it worked great.

[Aspiring]

I have a coworker who previously was a recording engineer professionally

When I was discussing recording with him his question to me was is your goal to make the best recording possible or to record you playing the best you can as they arw two different things entirely.

He mentioned he will do things like make up a track that is recordings of single note or chord voicing sounding exactly the way he wants that individual note to be played spliced together if he is trying to make the optimal recording. Stuff he couldn't actually even play