What IS great amplified tone???

[AeroUSA]

I like to check in occasionally to ask what everyone is currently using to amplify their guitars but I also wonder this week: What IS great amplified tone?

Do you want your guitar to sound like it has a mic in front of it? Do you want it to sound the way that it doesn’t when you sit and play it? Do you want a larger than life tone etc?

I just played a live stream on my channel with the K&K and IR and I feel like it sounds very natural but there were moments when I wanted it to have more grit (the Anthem sounds natural but also has a very bright and cutting sound which is great for soloing).

Please take a quick listen and let me know what you would change about this tone:

[Petty1818]

That's a good question. I think for me, I want a tone where my guitar sounds nice and big through the pa. Where my single note lines have some meat behind them, if that makes sense? I don't just want health low end, I want my high strings to sound nice and fat. I used to think it was just more bass that I wanted but in many cases, it's the B and E strings that sound thin/bright with most pickups. I want them warmed up a bit. The closest I got to that tone was with a Takamine G series. It wasn't even their palathetic pickup but the guitar, although a small bodied instrument, sounded huge through the pa.

I don't really care if my guitar sounds like a mic but I want it to sound like I put some effort into making it sound a bit more natural. I am one of those people who feels as though a bit of piezo pickup needs to be in the signal. I will never like a 100% IR blend.

I obviously don't like thin/bright tones but I also hate how many IR's have a hollowness to them. That's not pleasant as well.

It's funny but the tone you have in your video is very close to what I have been chasing. I don't love the K&K on its own as it has a distinct midrange that just sounds off to me. However, I find the mid range does help to make single note lines sound nice and fat. The K&K kind of reminds me of a Larrivee where the tone, when put through the proper impedance, is fairly balanced. The downside is that many of us want a bit more high end. That's where a bit of IR blend really helps and I think you achieved it with your live stream tone.

[AeroUSA]

Originally Posted by Petty1818

That's a good question. I think for me, I want a tone where my guitar sounds nice and big through the pa. Where my single note lines have some meat behind them, if that makes sense? I don't just want health low end, I want my high strings to sound nice and fat. I used to think it was just more bass that I wanted but in many cases, it's the B and E strings that sound thin/bright with most pickups. I want them warmed up a bit. The closest I got to that tone was with a Takamine G series. It wasn't even their palathetic pickup but the guitar, although a small bodied instrument, sounded huge through the pa.

I don't really care if my guitar sounds like a mic but I want it to sound like I put some effort into making it sound a bit more natural. I am one of those people who feels as though a bit of piezo pickup needs to be in the signal. I will never like a 100% IR blend.

I obviously don't like thin/bright tones but I also hate how many IR's have a hollowness to them. That's not pleasant as well.

It's funny but the tone you have in your video is very close to what I have been chasing. I don't love the K&K on its own as it has a distinct midrange that just sounds off to me. However, I find the mid range does help to make single note lines sound nice and fat. The K&K kind of reminds me of a Larrivee where the tone, when put through the proper impedance, is fairly balanced. The downside is that many of us want a bit more high end. That's where a bit of IR blend really helps and I think you achieved it with your live stream tone.

At 1:11:30 I bypass the IR and you can hear the straight K&K. I’m very happy with this tone but I actually like the way the anthem has some thinness and cut to it but I think the tone in this video is much more ‘natural’ than in my previous live streams.

[Petty1818]

Originally Posted by AeroUSA

At 1:11:30 I bypass the IR and you can hear the straight K&K. I’m very happy with this tone but I actually like the way the anthem has some thinness and cut to it but I think the tone in this video is much more ‘natural’ than in my previous live streams.

Yeah the IR just adds a nice bit of high end but I love the fullness of the k&k. I think for me it’s important to start with a nice fat sounding pickup when adding IR’s.

The Anthem is a nice pickup but that was actually one aspect I didn’t like. It felt as though the tru mic was just a bit too bright and thin. Now with that said, you use Martin guitars which are nice and warm to begin with. I felt as though the anthem with my Taylor was just too bright. It’s why I think a k&k and IR would work nicely with my guitar.

[AeroUSA]

Originally Posted by Petty1818

Yeah the IR just adds a nice bit of high end but I love the fullness of the k&k. I think for me it’s important to start with a nice fat sounding pickup when adding IR’s.

The Anthem is a nice pickup but that was actually one aspect I didn’t like. It felt as though the tru mic was just a bit too bright and thin. Now with that said, you use Martin guitars which are nice and warm to begin with. I felt as though the anthem with my Taylor was just too bright. It’s why I think a k&k and IR would work nicely with my guitar.

I guess I like the clarity of the Anthem mic but then it has body. But it brings me back to my other question. What IS good tone? I guess half the battle knowing what we actually want to hear.

[Petty1818]

Originally Posted by AeroUSA

I guess I like the clarity of the Anthem mic but then it has body. But it brings me back to my other question. What IS good tone? I guess half the battle knowing what we actually want to hear.

It’s funny, I loved the Lyric. I realized for me it just lacked low end but I remember just having a blast playing with it live because it was the first time I felt like I was playing my guitar and not some terrible pickup. The Anthem I struggled with. I am not sure why?! I agree it has amazing clarity and is easily the most natural pickup on the market.

I am at the point where I am waiting for the voiceprint. If it is an improvement over some IR issues that I have had in the past then I am installing a K&k and calling it a day. I have two jacks in this guitar so a K&k in one and a matrix in the other would be perfect with the voiceprint.

[AeroUSA]

Originally Posted by Petty1818

It’s funny, I loved the Lyric. I realized for me it just lacked low end but I remember just having a blast playing with it live because it was the first time I felt like I was playing my guitar and not some terrible pickup. The Anthem I struggled with. I am not sure why?! I agree it has amazing clarity and is easily the most natural pickup on the market.

I am at the point where I am waiting for the voiceprint. If it is an improvement over some IR issues that I have had in the past then I am installing a K&k and calling it a day. I have two jacks in this guitar so a K&k in one and a matrix in the other would be perfect with the voiceprint.

Would you run the K&K AND fishman together into the pedal or would you pick and choose which you use depending on the gig?

What are you hoping the VPDI to do? Why not just use a K&K now? For me it’s the feedback (can be fixed with EQ) and the piezo quality that still exists.

[Brent Hahn]

As an FOH mixer, seems to me there are a few different things in play. The first is what your guitar and pickup are capable of. The second is what the PA is capable of doing with it. And the third is how your audience perceives it.

Many higher-end pickup systems, with or without things like the ToneDexter, can put out the full tonal spectrum of a guitar in a reasonably realistic way. But even with a well-tuned PA and a skilled mixer, the low end will have to be rolled off to avoid feedback. And with the high end, the guitar and pickup will probably be writing checks that the PA can't cash. It varies with the price point, of course, but in broad strokes PA tweeters were designed to prioritize survival over sound. So those pretty, airy trebles coming out of the guitar will be a lot nastier in the room. And they can feed back, too.

And then there's the audience. Based on the, um, feedback, I've gotten personally and I've heard colleagues report about, in general men like things brighter than women. And this gap widens with age. So if it's crispy enough for you, mister, the missus is probably uncomfortable.

[jseth]

I'm primarily a solo acoustic guitar/voice type... playing gigs in smaller venues, bars, coffeehouses and restaurants and the like... I've done a couple "big" stage things, but the steady diet for the past 50 years has been more like I mentioned previously.

Ever since the first time I played a gig at a bar in 1969, using the house Shure Vocal Master pa (!!!) and shoving my little high-impedence Shure mics in front of my guitar and my face, I have wanted the guitar to sound like it sounds, sitting in my lap and hands in a room that has great acoustic reflections...

Over the years, I've become much more acquainted with that sound I want from my guitar (voice, too, but that's been halfway easy for decades now). It's always frustrating to work with a sound guy who seems to think that acoustic guitars should sound the way they do on Journey or Boston record...

I tell them, "When I'm up there, my guitar is my FULL BAND... and I want to hear every player present and accounted for!" The mode d'employ for "scooping the mids" is repugnant to my ears... the acoustic guitar IS MIDS, from some lower to the high ones, but that's the frequency spectrum in which it sits...

A huge reason I love using my Bose L1 Model II is that I can hear exactly what my audience is hearing from my guitar and my vocal...

I used the Anthem SL pickups for nearly a decade and liked the amplified tone quite a lot. I still remember plugging them in the first time and having so much more nuance available than I had previously with a Fishman UST (with which I also used an SM-57 on the top for some breath).

Just recently, I parted with several guitars to pare down to just one 6 string acoustic. I had the opportunity to get a set of Dazzos installed in the new guitar (we did the install using my Bose rig as a reference) and was so impressed that I immediately yanked out the Anthem from my 12 string and put Dazzos in there, as well!

I was very pleased (and relieved) to find that the Dazzos sounded brilliant straight into the Bose T1 mixer I use, without having to resort to spending a bunch more money on one of SunnAudio's preamps (which are INCREDIBLE in what they contribute to the sound of those Dazzos, by the way)... not just the money for it, more for "one more thing" in the signal chain...

The final result was that the Dazzos actually SOUND LIKE MY GUITAR, as loud as I want to get it (given obvious constraints of space, volume and physics!)... it does NOT have that "punchy, direct" sonic attack like a UST, but it DOES have every nuance of my wonderful Goodall Concert Jumbo...

I have been champing at the bit to get out and play for folks with these things...

Although after decades of using pickups that imparted a more "electric' immediacy to the sound of my guitars I had gotten used to and actually enjoyed manipulating that directness of sound... especially with my 12 string. But I know that my own technique can supply whatever grit and punch I want... it's all the hands and fingers, baby!

I really can't recommend the Dazzos highly enough, with the caveat of finding someone who's fluid with the installation. Certainly, Teddy Rondazzo will do it for you if he's anywhere in the area, but it is an involved process that has some room to "move"; having a knowledgeable installer is a VERY good idea, especially for a "non-tech" guy like me!

I'm very, VERY appreciative of our member here, Vancebo, for being so generous with his time, knowledge and home to do that first installation! Thanks, again, Vance!

So, that's where "great acoustic tone" sits for me at the moment... now, after gigging for all these years; I know that the proof will be in the pudding, and that I won't really know how good these suckers are until I can get out and let 'em rip a bit!

[willymartin]

Solo.. As close to mic'd as possible

With band...I agree, some grit but no quack. I've actually never once considered an acoustasonic...but after listening to the new Billy Strings/Molly Tuttle vids then comparing their sound to their live acoustic tones....I think I'm saving up..still thinking tho..no quack, grit, cuts through a folk rock/alt country band...supposedly less fuss. (Lil off topic...but...2 different tones for 2 different purposes for me)

[Cuki79]

Originally Posted by jseth

The final result was that the Dazzos actually SOUND LIKE MY GUITAR, as loud as I want to get it (given obvious constraints of space, volume and physics!)...

Can you please post a soundcloud comparison between a mic in front of the Guitar and the Dazzo pickup Recorded straight into an audio-interface with no EQ and no Reverb?

I believe There is very few comparison like that on the net. The only one I can remember is Toni Lingren, and the Dazzo Take sounds like a pickup while the mic take sounds like a Martin. I would say the same from Doug Young’s demo.

[Petty1818]

Originally Posted by AeroUSA

Would you run the K&K AND fishman together into the pedal or would you pick and choose which you use depending on the gig?

What are you hoping the VPDI to do? Why not just use a K&K now? For me it’s the feedback (can be fixed with EQ) and the piezo quality that still exists.

At one point, many years ago, I actually considered a K&K + Matrix set up. I believe Eric Johnson ran that set up for a few years. However, for this set up, I would use the Matrix and K&K independently and it would depend on the type of show/venue.

I hope the voiceprint fixes that hollowness that so many IR's have. I guess it's considered the "room" sound coming through in the mix. It's as if you lose the immediacy of the pickup and notes just sound a bit distant. Lloyd discusses at length how the use of the phone vs. high end microphones, made it possible to cut out the room and focus more on the guitar.

[Marty C]

Whatever makes us comfortable and confident when we play out.

[shufflebeat]

Originally Posted by willymartin

I've actually never once considered an acoustasonic...but after listening to the new Billy Strings/Molly Tuttle vids then comparing their sound to their live acoustic tones...

I'm a great admirer of Molly T and Billy S. I didn't quick search for recent vids and found one with the Acoustisonics. It sounds awful compared to what I'm accustomed to hearing from them. If you have another example that might be more representative I'd be very grateful if you could point us towards it.

[shufflebeat]

Er, that should read, "I did a quick search...".

Dumb thumbs.