Sennheiser MD 441 for recording acoustic g.

[Eclectic Guitar]

Because I began this particular microphone quest with the guy at my local music store telling me that all LCDs & multi-pattern condenser mics with their hypercardioid setting are so sensitive that they do NOT alleviate room sounds or off axis sounds NEAR as much as unidirectional cardioid microphones -like the Sure SM 7b, Beyerdynamic M88, ElectroVoice RE20 or Sennheiser MD441, and I've also been told by many others that all condenser mics -even the multi-pattern condensers with hypercardioid and/or supercardioid patterns & reflection filters etc. pick up all the room noise. -in gearslutz.com; both Jack & Jim concurred re using dynamic cardiods, (they simply agreed with the guy at my music store in definite terms), and after that there were at least half a dozen who were quite good with the dynamic cardioid direction, (one recommending the ElectroVoice RE20 for example), - I feel that I should also keep digging re this production perspective & opinion too.

-The received wisdom being that "generally" condenser mics are by far best for recording acoustic guitars. However the ElectroVoice RE20 or Sennheiser MD441 dynamic cardioids are said to record acoustic guitar well, (as well as vocals).

-Otherwise should further digging & research bear out the LCD direction, (re my preferred price point) -research leads me to the affordable CAD M179 multi pattern condenser with hypercardioid setting, or the Avantone Pro CK-7, the ADK A6, & ADK S7 LDC mics -all said to be great values.

It would be great to get a comparative analysis between these well recommended LCD microphones;
(1.) ADK A6, ADK S7 ( both recommended for guit. -ADK recommends the S7 )
(2.) Avantone Pro CK-7
(3.) CAD M179;

A comparative between the ADK A6 and ADK S7 (for guitar) would be especially interesting, -I've already read an old Paul White article in SOS mag.
From the descriptions they put me in mind of the new AKG C414 XLS and AKG C414 XL II, -I wonder if there is some kind of comparison there?

At about half the price the AKG P220, & AT 2020 both are also said to be great values, -they seem to be what some choose when recording acoustics with a spaced pair of mics.

When first embarking on this mic search, (even before being advised to go with dynamic cardioids at the local music store) I was originally advised to get the affordable Audio Technica U873R hypercardioid condenser mic -as a "go to mic" for acoustic instruments like acoustic guitars & even vocals, (it's freq. range is only 70Hz to 20KHz). As things stand, it would seem from what all I can gather so far, that this is, as likely as not to be still in the running as a most cost effective mic -for my compromised acoustically untreated recording room.

[Doug Young]

I'm not sure what the question is here, but to me, you're way overthinking this. The difference between all these options is going to be *very* subtle. I'd go back and re-read Bob Womack's comment and really take it to heart. You don't need to choose the perfect mic based on specs, and doing that likely won't be very effective - tho probably any of the mics you list would work out fine for you. There are sites that have mic shootouts posted, if you really want to spend time trying to understand the differences. Or there are places that will let you try and return mics, so you can try them yourself. Or you can find recordings whose sound you like and try to find out what they used (There are lots of recordings and videos here on AGF, so you should be able to contact the poster and ask about what gear they used.)

Also, as others have pointed out, rather than focusing on selecting a mic, it's more effective to plan out your whole setup. If you want advice, it helps to be more specific about what you plan to record, what experience you have with recording, what your current gear and recording environment is like, what your budget is, and so on.

So I guess I could have phrased this as a question: "Can you tell us more about what you want to do with these mics?"

[Eclectic Guitar]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

I'm not sure what the question is here, but to me, you're way overthinking this. The difference between all these options is going to be *very* subtle. I'd go back and re-read Bob Womack's comment and really take it to heart. You don't need to choose the perfect mic based on specs, and doing that likely won't be very effective - tho probably any of the mics you list would work out fine for you. There are sites that have mic shootouts posted, if you really want to spend time trying to understand the differences. Or there are places that will let you try and return mics, so you can try them yourself. Or you can find recordings whose sound you like and try to find out what they used (There are lots of recordings and videos here on AGF, so you should be able to contact the poster and ask about what gear they used.)

Also, as others have pointed out, rather than focusing on selecting a mic, it's more effective to plan out your whole setup. If you want advice, it helps to be more specific about what you plan to record, what experience you have with recording, what your current gear and recording environment is like, what your budget is, and so on.

So I guess I could have phrased this as a question: "Can you tell us more about what you want to do with these mics?"

-re Bob Womack's comment;
"Back in 1980 my professor of Recording Techniques and Electronic Music taught me a profound lesson: you need to make music with what you have and not long for some new instrument or device to come along. Adopting that philosophy has kept me from pursuing the rotating door of either guitars or mics. Its kind of "Equipment checks in; it never checks out." Bob :

I just want to make various vocal & acoustic guitar tracks, -but not always of just a "prototype" or "demo" quality. -I do have a Radar 24 (with Nyquist converters), & a couple of Grace Design M101 pres & Mogami instrument & mic cables. -Id like to, (& should be able to) produce some clean -pro quality tracks of this kind in my little/medium sized room that I can later take somewhere else so as to add on other tracks such as drums, electric guitars with amps etc.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by Eclectic Guitar

I just want to make various vocal & acoustic guitar tracks, -but not always of just a "prototype" or "demo" quality. -I do have a Radar 24 (with Nyquist converters), & a couple of Grace Design M101 pres & Mogami instrument & mic cables. -Id like to, (& should be able to) produce some clean -pro quality tracks of this kind in my little/medium sized room that I can later take somewhere else so as to add on other tracks such as drums, electric guitars with amps etc.

What mics have you already tried? In what way did they fall short? Any of the mics you list should be good enough to produce more than just demo tracks. There's always some better piece of gear to buy - and if you want mics that theoretically match the quality of your Grace, you may need to increase your budget - but that may nor may not change anything.

The limiting factor in home recording is usually room acoustics. That, along with the performance, mic placement, and general recording skill are what will make a difference between a demo and a pro-quality recording.

[Trevor B.]

Then again, we're always just one more piece of gear away from the "perfect" sound (lol).

[RayCJ]

Eclectic...

It takes a pretty serious recording room and playback equipment to judge such subtle differences in mics. From minute to minute, hour to hour and day to day, most humans do not have hearing (or the ability to remember a sound) that is consistent and reliable enough to predictably tell the differences from one high-end mic to the next.

I get the feeling you're stricken with a case of "analysis paralysis". In your shoes, I'd put an end to the torture... Pick your price range, pick a couple small condenser and one large condenser mics, pick a manufacturer -and run with it.


Ray

[sdelsolray]

Originally Posted by Eclectic Guitar

...
[T]hese days I'm forced to record in a somewhat noisy acoustically untreated room environment.
...

Originally Posted by Eclectic Guitar

...
I just want to make various vocal & acoustic guitar tracks, -but not always of just a "prototype" or "demo" quality. -I do have a Radar 24 (with Nyquist converters), & a couple of Grace Design M101 pres & Mogami instrument & mic cables. -Id like to, (& should be able to) produce some clean -pro quality tracks of this kind in my little/medium sized room that I can later take somewhere else so as to add on other tracks such as drums, electric guitars with amps etc.

Until you get your room fixed, that gear, as nice as it is, won't matter much.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by sdelsolray

Until you get your room fixed, that gear, as nice as it is, won't matter much.

I would second this statement, and if your on a tight budget, you can always consider making some DIY absorbers.

And what exactly do you mean by "noisy" , do you mean ambient or reflective noise, or both?

Also what mic/s do you currently have ?
What is you monitoring system ?

The Radar interface/converter and the Grace pre amps are completely capable of reproduction accuracy that COULD result in professional recordings, (depending on numerous other variables). What they will bring to the table is a very accurate picture of all the sound (clean and distorted) being fed into those units. As well as a very accurate picture of all the mixing decisions (good and bad) being made.

[Eclectic Guitar]

Another point that needs considering is that at this time I only possess an Allen & Heath ZED22 FX performance mixer, -so I'm intending to proceed mostly by way of "Minimal Signal Chain" recording technique.

-I will put the mic in to the pre and then straight into the Radar recorder, (only rarely will I include compressors or reverb etc. in this signal chain).

This means that I must figure out the "Gain Staging" involved -should I opt for LCD, SDC or dynamic cardioid mics -with these Grace Design pres & their volume controls. (-I'm getting a vague notion of other possible reasons why some may choose dynamic cardioid/hypercardioids in these situations re this sort of thing.)

I'm still not convinced that there isn't some such good reason for people, (like the guy at my local music store -who is a bit of a engineer & prod. himself) choosing dynamic cardioid microphones for these on-location, field and/or live recordings that all have similar problems as my somewhat noisy acoustically untreated room.


AGF Charter Member RayCJ makes what very well may turn out to be a key point in my case when he says;

"Pick your price range, pick a couple small condenser and one large condenser mics, pick a manufacturer -and run with it." Ray

Yesterday I was browsing some of the older gearslutz.com threads & read an old one with Steve Remote, (a very hip NYC sound man who specializes in making live or on- location recordings), re recording in "noisy rooms" -and he spoke of close micing (that SDCs lend themselves to), so as to eliminate some of the background noise.

I see that the before mentioned Avantone company, (re the LCD Avantone Pro CK-7) also have a very affordable SDC model, (the Avantone Pro CK-1) -perhaps experimenting around a bit with a spaced pair of these SDC mics, ("close miced") -and the LDC Avantone Pro CK-7 would eventually get me what I want re acoustic guitar tracks ?

AGF Charter Member sdelsolray said re-

O.P.by Eclectic Guitar/ "These days I'm forced to record in a somewhat noisy acoustically untreated room environment."
& Quote: O.P. by Eclectic Guitar/ "I just want to make various vocal & acoustic guitar tracks, -but not always of just a "prototype" or "demo" quality. -I do have a Radar 24 (with Nyquist converters), & a couple of Grace Design M101 pres & Mogami instrument & mic cables. -Id like to, (& should be able to) produce some clean -pro quality tracks of this kind in my little/medium sized room that I can later take somewhere else so as to add on other tracks such as drums, electric guitars with amps etc."

"Until you get your room fixed, that gear, as nice as it is, won't matter much." sdelsolray

KevWind also says; "I would second this statement, and if your on a tight budget, you can always consider making some DIY absorbers."

"And what exactly do you mean by "noisy" , do you mean ambient or reflective noise, or both? Also what mic/s do you currently have ? What is you monitoring system ?"

As to mics currently I have 2 Sure SM57s & a Rodes NT-1A, -the 57s are a little too coloured & the mid-ranged NT-1A sounds like it needs EQing, -I don't have EQ other than what the performance mixer has -and I don't want EQing, -I'd rather get the right sound from the right mic selection. (-I'll be a little while before able to get some credible nearfield monitors, -indeed I may end up renting a little local studio for mixing later on...)

*As for fixing the room* -As I mentioned before I do have a "PrimaAcoustic" Reflection Filter. I may also get the better "SoundTrap" Reflection Filter.
-The other thing I'm planning is to get another large Futon Coach cushion, then with the two, I will place them behind me in a corner of the room, with the Refection Filter/Filters behind & around the mics.

Other than a small DIY absorber or DIY "mini or micro gobo" here & there,... that's about all I can handle in my living environment.

I'm curios as to the effectiveness of "Tube Traps" -but as I said, I have to live in there too.




__________________

[Bobby1note]

"Back in 1980 my professor of Recording Techniques and Electronic Music taught me a profound lesson: you need to make music with what you have and not long for some new instrument or device to come along. Adopting that philosophy has kept me from pursuing the rotating door of either guitars or mics. Its kind of "Equipment checks in; it never checks out."

Bob"
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This^^^,,,, says it all in my opinion. Make do with what you've got,,,, but I'll add,,, make the best, of what you do have, and that takes a little work, and the ability to properly analyze, and react to,,, what you're hearing.

In my personal experience, nothing is more important than "placement",,,,, nothing.

Let's put that into context;

The OP says he doesn't have the budget for an MD441 (roughly $1k. last time I looked.) I seriously doubt the OP will "treat a room", "and" buy a mic and pre-amp.

So, what to do within those limitations? Simple,,,, choose the best mic you "can" afford,,,, then work on placement,,,,, and when I say placement,,, I'm not talking solely about mic-placement relative to the instrument. You also have to consider placement within the space in which you are recording, and that will take work,,,, a LOT of work. The result will only be as good as your work ethic, and your willingness to experiment.

Record in a hallway,,,, the shower,,,, sitting square to a wall,,, angled to a wall,,, in a corner,,,, in the middle of a room,,,, standing,,,, sitting,,, playing in a doorway between two rooms,,,,, whatever it takes, until you find the magical sweet-spot that works to your advantage.

I once recorded an album in the late '70's, with a cheap electret-condenser mic, into a simple cassette recorder,,, and the entire recording "rig" cost something like $119. I kid you not when I say I spent two weeks (a few hours each day), until I found the ideal mic-placement relative to my instrument and voice, as well as my personal placement within the recording space. These were "one-take" recordings, voice and finger-style guitar. No editing or processing tools whatsoever. If you screwed up,,, or it didn't sound quite right, you start over from scratch. It was work alright, but at the end of the day, none of my friends believed that it was me playing and singing. They all assumed it was a "pro" performer and recording. Some even argued that this was impossible, and that there had to be "more than one" musician in the recording. Nope. Just me and my old git-box. And let me tell you, that experience taught me a heckuva lot about "working a mic" too.

As an "aside" here, regarding the Senn MD441; seems to me I read somewhere that Elton John used to use a pair of MD441's, with one of them "delayed" by a couple of milli-seconds, in order to "thicken up" his vocals.

Regarding the C-414,,, it's a great mic.

[KevWind]

Personally I would opt for a pair of SDC for acoustic guitar.

That said I think the other thing that would really be of help would be for you to post more exact detail about your system.
Are you using a DAW inside a computer computer ?
What is the exact and entire roll your Radar unit plays in your system?
In other words exactly how is everything interfacing and in what order ?

[Eclectic Guitar]

[QUOTE=Bobby1note;
- "So, what to do within those limitations? Simple,,,, choose the best mic you "can" afford,,,, then work on placement,,,,, and when I say placement,,, I'm not talking solely about mic-placement relative to the instrument. You also have to consider placement within the space in which you are recording, and that will take work,,,, a LOT of work. The result will only be as good as your work ethic, and your willingness to experiment.

Record in a hallway,,,, the shower,,,, sitting square to a wall,,, angled to a wall,,, in a corner,,,, in the middle of a room,,,, standing,,,, sitting,,, playing in a doorway between two rooms,,,,, whatever it takes, until you find the magical sweet-spot that works to your advantage.

As an "aside" here, regarding the Senn MD441; seems to me I read somewhere that Elton John used to use a pair of MD441's, with one of them "delayed" by a couple of milli-seconds, in order to "thicken up" his vocals.

Regarding the C-414,,, it's a great mic."[/QUOTE]


Thanks Bobby 1note for your mic placement thoughts -I do believe in what you say.

-Regarding the "Senn MD441;" etc. -very recently I too seem to recollect have read about someone recording Elton John's piano with Senn MD441s & then putting the signal through a Pultec EQ in such a way as to give a certain "effect" -that has become known as Elton's piano sound. (?)

[Eclectic Guitar]

Originally Posted by KevWind

Personally I would opt for a pair of SDC for acoustic guitar.

That said I think the other thing that would really be of help would be for you to post more exact detail about your system.
Are you using a DAW inside a computer computer ?
What is the exact and entire roll your Radar unit plays in your system?
In other words exactly how is everything interfacing and in what order ?

I am not using a DAW in any way shape or form, (at this time), with this old Radar 24, (2005 - 2008 technology).

If you really want to use a DAW with a Radar, you should get the quite new "Radar Studio" -that's built for working with DAWs like no other devise. -It would be the way to go, "absolutely".

The Radar 24 is digital, but operates much like an analogue machine. It has digital converters & analogue converters.

I need to run my recorded tracks back through my mixer -just so that I can listen to what I've recorded on headphones.

This machine can do numerous tasks for editing purposes etc. -but is not a standalone or a music computer.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by Eclectic Guitar

I am not using a DAW in any way shape or form, (at this time), with this old Radar 24, (2005 - 2008 technology).

If you really want to use a DAW with a Radar, you should get the quite new "Radar Studio" -that's built for working with DAWs like no other devise. -It would be the way to go, "absolutely".

The Radar 24 is digital, but operates much like an analogue machine. It has digital converters & analogue converters.

I need to run my recorded tracks back through my mixer -just so that I can listen to what I've recorded on headphones.

This machine can do numerous tasks for editing purposes etc. -but is not a standalone or a music computer.

Ah I thought might be what was going on. And why your wanting to get the exact sound you want going in
(and eliminate any sound you do not want )

Can it output multi track digital files like WAV files ?

[Eclectic Guitar]

Originally Posted by KevWind

Ah I thought might be what was going on. And why your wanting to get the exact sound you want going in
(and eliminate any sound you do not want )

Can it output multi track digital files like WAV files ?

It can do this by various means. -But in the foreseeable future I'm intending, (& have been recommended to doing) loading such data onto a portable hard drive -and going on to computers from there, say for example in a case where I needed some MP3 copies.

These days I don't have a computer of any kind, and I'll probably get monitors for my rig before poking around into a so called "DAW".