The Acoustic Guitar Forum

Go Back   The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > PLAY and Write

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #16  
Old 06-11-2019, 11:51 AM
rick-slo's Avatar
rick-slo rick-slo is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: San Luis Obispo, CA
Posts: 12,616
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PiousDevil View Post
I think during most chords in which the 3rd is fretted we unconsciously make minute adjustments with our finger pressure to get the sweetest sounding note that we can.
Hard to counteract a note sounding sharp unfortunately.
__________________
Derek Coombs
Website -> Music -> Tabs -> CDs and Youtube
Guitars by Mark Blanchard, Albert&Mueller, Paul Woolson, Collings, Composite Acoustics, and Derek Coombs
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 06-11-2019, 12:07 PM
charles Tauber charles Tauber is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,256
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by vindibona1 View Post
The system of equal temperament is off by design...The thing is that the intonation issue is most clear when playing triads or chords.
Those are two different, unrelated things. The first is temperament, which determines the target pitches. The second is intonation, which is how closely or accurately an instrument is able to achieve the target pitches.

By design, nearly all guitars are fretted to produce pitches belonging to equal temperament. If a guitar had "perfect" intonation - was able to sound exactly the target pitches of equal temperament - it would still sound out of tune. It sounds out of tune, not because of a failure of the instrument to accurately produce the target pitches, but because the target pitches are off. Intonation is a separate issue from temperament. (It's also a different issue that many, many guitars have poor intonation and many buyers either don't expect better or can't tell the difference.)

Since you can't, on most guitars, move the frets around so that they do not produce equal temperament pitches, the best you can do is decide how you want adjust string tensions to have specific notes, at specific frets, sound "better" and deviate from the pitches of equal temperament. As others have pointed out, it moves the out-of-tuneness around, possibly to a place that is temporarily less objectionable for that specific key or piece of music.

Last edited by charles Tauber; 06-11-2019 at 12:20 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 06-11-2019, 03:10 PM
Stomp Stomp is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: DUB HAM ORD
Posts: 239
Default

Shifting the tuning around to suit the situation is common practise, but you need to be familiar with the flaws in Equal temperament and how Just Intonation works.

Take a bluegrass band as an example, the fiddler will often tune the open G straight and stack perfect fifths on that G (701.9 cent intervals instead of Equally tempered 700 cents), making the open E string sharp of ET by 5.7 cents.
Out of tune? Not really, as fiddlers say "better sharp than out of tune" (Sweetener FDL).
A concert violinist will tune differently with the A string tuned "straight" and the others tuned in perfect fifths above and below the A (Sweetener VLN).

The Dobro player will invariably lower the B strings by the full 13.7 cents to get a pure beatless third (Sweetener DB0).
Does he worry about "blending in"? No, it's about sounding good - he just watches when he plays what, those sweet triads are worth it.

The banjo player will also lower the B string a smidge (about halfway between an Equally tempered third and a Just intoned third - Sweetener BJO).

Then there's pedal steel, with three different pitches for F# etc. (Sweeteners SE9, SC6 etc.)

It's all about having your instrument sound as good as possible within itself while being aware of the general tonal center of what's being played.
Equal temperament is a distant object in the rearview mirror at that stage...it's a good basis, sure, but trust your ears.
What sounds good to you is probably going to sound good to others too, just be aware of how tuning works.

Our tuners are just the programmable assistants which can show you visually how to get to what your ears want to hear, when your ears can't hear (e.g. on stage).
Purely IMHO of course .
__________________
1895 Ditson
56 Gibson LG1
72 Guild D25
77 Gurian JM
78 Yamaha FG375S
79 Guild F512
92 Dobro 33H
96 Guild JF55
00 Fender Tele
03 Taylor BB
04 Gibson ES137
05 Washb Uke
06 Gibson LP
07 Martin BP
18 Gibson SJ200

GBNF: Gibson 54 A40,90 J200,90 LP; Guild 75 F112,93 D25/12,95 JF30/12; 65 Fender Mustang; 84 Marlen D10; 98 Ric 360/12; 08 Martin HD35


I work for Peterson Strobe Tuners
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 06-11-2019, 11:31 PM
DesertTwang DesertTwang is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Tucson, Arizona
Posts: 5,123
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PiousDevil View Post
I think during most chords in which the 3rd is fretted we unconsciously make minute adjustments with our finger pressure to get the sweetest sounding note that we can.
An intriguing thought. I'll try to pay attention to this from now on.
__________________
"And that's why I've always thought of bluegrass players as the Marines of the music world" – (Some rock guitar guy I jammed with a while ago)

Martin America 1
Martin 000-15sm
Recording King Dirty 30s RPS-9 TS
Taylor GS Mini
Baton Rouge 12-string guitar
Martin Backpacker
1933 Epiphone Olympic
1971 Dobro
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 06-12-2019, 05:59 AM
PiousDevil PiousDevil is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 1,478
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rick-slo View Post
Hard to counteract a note sounding sharp unfortunately.


You’re right that there is very little you can do in regards to pressure to flatten the actual third, but I guess what I mean is you can sharpen the other notes around it (except the open root, in the case of the D shape obviously)
__________________
Too many guitars and a couple of banjos
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 06-12-2019, 09:33 AM
ljguitar's Avatar
ljguitar ljguitar is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: wyoming
Posts: 38,210
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rick-slo View Post
Hard to counteract a note sounding sharp unfortunately.
Hi r-s

It's why I squeeze other notes in the chord a bit sharp too. It's more in tune with itself.

Not everyone hears out-of-tuneness unless it's extreme.

One observation I made early on is when you play a guitar your not only hear out of tune notes, you feel them when playing particularly resonant instruments.




__________________
Larry J

Baby #01
Baby #02
Baby #03
Baby #04
Full-size Full-Scale Baby #4

Larry's songs...

…Just because you've argued till a discussion turns silent doesn't mean you have convinced anyone…
Reply With Quote
Reply

  The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > PLAY and Write

Thread Tools



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:27 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, The Acoustic Guitar Forum
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=