The Acoustic Guitar Forum

Go Back   The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > RECORD

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 03-20-2010, 02:15 PM
shawlie shawlie is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,727
Default home recording cd question

A lady I know sings with me sometimes and wants to play out more often. We did it a couple times, got nice reactions and plan on doing it a lot more.

We'd also like to record some stuff for on a cd - nothing very fancy, just to give out here and there and maybe sell cheap if we play. It's all home-made stuff, on a Zoom2 (but am taking steps to make the room better for recording, to get the most out of what we have to use). It's a hobby and we have a lot of fun so far.

I was wondering about something that's always given me problems - everytime I try and record something it sounds ok on computer at a (fairly) normal volume. If I burn it to cd, I often have to turn up the volume quite a bit and think I must be doing something wrong. A song may peak at -6db on my computer, and I on cd I have to turn the volume up several notches more than a normal cd.

Is this just because I use more or less cheap stuff, or can I get the level higher without making the peak level higher?
__________________
a few fingerstyle country-blues and folk tunes

"Yeah!" - Blind Boy Fuller
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 03-20-2010, 03:04 PM
Fran Guidry Fran Guidry is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Walnut Creek, CA
Posts: 3,712
Default

The music on commercial CDs is processed to raise the volume. You can do some of the same things.

First, no need to leave headroom when you burn - but if you do want to leave a little, make is -.1 dBFS instead of -6 dbFS. It's a great idea, a super great idea, to leave plenty of headroom when recording and mixing, but run the level up to the top when you "master" your final track. Save your mastered versions separate from your original cuts and your mixed versions, of course.

Second, examine some commercial recordings that you like, that you want to imitate, both aurally and visually. Rip the tracks to your computer and look at the waveforms in your audio editor. Most tracks today are hit pretty hard with limiting - the tops of the waveforms are flat. Even if this isn't the case you'll probably see denser waveforms, representing a reduction in dynamic range. Also listen to these tracks, a lot, on your mixing system. We can't realistically calibrate our playback system/room, so we have to adjust our ears by listening to familiar, professionally created music. Then we'll have a subjective standard to evaluate our recordings against.

Third, you can use limiting to raise the average level, even if you can't do it as well as a pro mastering engineer. Adjust carefully, listen critically, let your ears rest and listen again. But you can squeeze a bit of extra "loudness" out of most things without artifacts that bother you.

Hope these ideas help.

Fran
__________________
E ho`okani pila kakou ma Kaleponi
Slack Key in California - www.kaleponi.com
My YouTube clips
The Homebrewed Music Blog
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 03-20-2010, 03:22 PM
makikogi makikogi is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Silver Spring, MD
Posts: 913
Default

yea mastering is where they bring the level up to par. I just recorded an album and we just sent out the bounced wav file to the studio and got the tracks professionally mastered. Don't worry, it's not your gear.
__________________
Mark

Rainsong WS1000
Taylor "T6" Custom w/added element UST
USA Tele Deluxe
Ibanex SRX-500
Vox AC-15

Korg Pitch Black (2x), Fishman Aura 16, BBE Sonic Stomp, LR Baggs PADI, Boss TU-2, Sansamp Tech21 Bass Driver, Boss GE-7 Bass EQ, MXR Micro Amp, Keely BD-2, Fulltone OCD, Fulltone Fulldrive 2 Mosfet, Boss DD-20, BBE supacharger

Up next: Empress EQ, Radial J48
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 03-20-2010, 03:40 PM
G7th G7th is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Cheyenne, Wyoming
Posts: 9
Default

Shawlie,
I also use a Zoom H2 and had encountered the same amplification issue that you now face. First, make sure that the gain switch on the side of the recorder is turned to the "high" mark. If that does not fix it, use your recording software to amplify the sound levels to where they are peaked out at the loudest point in the song before burning the files onto a CD. I use Audacity as my recording software, it's free to download! Hope that helps!
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 03-20-2010, 05:34 PM
DupleMeter DupleMeter is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 1,753
Default

Yeah - the "loud" is added at mastering with the use of multiband compression & brickwall limiting.

It's a dangerous game that anyone who records a CD needs to play. Bob Katz has a lot of great articles about that and his attempt to tame the loudness wars with his K-metering standard.

Check out Bob's site: http://www.digido.com a recommended read for anyone doing their own recording.
__________________
-Steve

1927 Martin 00-21
1986 Fender Strat
1987 Ibanez RG560
1988 Fender Fretless J Bass
1991 Washburn HB-35s
1995 Taylor 812ce
1996 Taylor 510c (custom)
1996 Taylor 422-R (Limited Edition)
1997 Taylor 810-WMB (Limited Edition)
1998 Taylor 912c (Custom)
2019 Fender Tele
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 03-20-2010, 09:49 PM
makikogi makikogi is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Silver Spring, MD
Posts: 913
Default

ok so I just picked up ikmultimedia t-racks. And wow what a difference mastering software makes.
__________________
Mark

Rainsong WS1000
Taylor "T6" Custom w/added element UST
USA Tele Deluxe
Ibanex SRX-500
Vox AC-15

Korg Pitch Black (2x), Fishman Aura 16, BBE Sonic Stomp, LR Baggs PADI, Boss TU-2, Sansamp Tech21 Bass Driver, Boss GE-7 Bass EQ, MXR Micro Amp, Keely BD-2, Fulltone OCD, Fulltone Fulldrive 2 Mosfet, Boss DD-20, BBE supacharger

Up next: Empress EQ, Radial J48
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 03-21-2010, 07:01 AM
Bob Womack's Avatar
Bob Womack Bob Womack is offline
Guitar Gourmet
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Between Clever and Stupid
Posts: 26,993
Default

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." - Aurthur C. Clarke
__________________
"It is said, 'Go not to the elves for counsel for they will say both no and yes.' "
Frodo Baggins to Gildor Inglorion, The Fellowship of the Ring

THE MUSICIAN'S ROOM (my website)
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 03-21-2010, 11:28 AM
DupleMeter DupleMeter is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 1,753
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Womack View Post
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." - Aurthur C. Clarke
How true!
__________________
-Steve

1927 Martin 00-21
1986 Fender Strat
1987 Ibanez RG560
1988 Fender Fretless J Bass
1991 Washburn HB-35s
1995 Taylor 812ce
1996 Taylor 510c (custom)
1996 Taylor 422-R (Limited Edition)
1997 Taylor 810-WMB (Limited Edition)
1998 Taylor 912c (Custom)
2019 Fender Tele
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 03-21-2010, 11:37 AM
wthurman's Avatar
wthurman wthurman is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Louisville, Kentucky
Posts: 10,620
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Womack View Post
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." - Aurthur C. Clarke
Interestingly, in the book "3001," Frank Poole quotes "some author from the late 20th century," (meaning Clarke, who was writing Frank Poole part) in this way. I loved the sense of humor.
__________________
Wade


Worry less about the guitars you want. Play the guitar you have more.
The answer will come, and it will not be what you expect.

A guitar is a tool, and a friend. But it is not the answer.

It is the beginning.


Current Guitars:


Taylor 716C Modified
Voyage-Air VAOM-04

CD: The Bayleys: From The Inside
CDBaby
Amazon
Also available from iTunes



Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 03-21-2010, 01:10 PM
shawlie shawlie is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,727
Default

Thanks for all the ideas and information.

Having brought things up from -6 to around -1 to -3 seems to help already, but sounds a little busy or something (maybe I just need to listen tomorrow).

Your second idea is very useful, Fran - I'll give it a try. Never really thought to look at actual songs - I listen, of course, but never looked at the wave files. Could be very interessting, I think.

Things like limiting, compression, etc. - I try to use them sometimes, but in the end just turn them off again. I have no idea what I'm doing with those things, and so think it's best to leave them alone for me. I have been reading a lot on-line, but it still seems fairly complex.

And I sometimes have the Zoom on "high", but it picks up a lot of extra sound that way - it's pretty noisy here at the best of times (and so am I when I'm playing...).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Womack View Post
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." - Aurthur C. Clarke
I still think things like magnets are pretty fantastic and strange, so I do get confused a little easy...
__________________
a few fingerstyle country-blues and folk tunes

"Yeah!" - Blind Boy Fuller
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 03-21-2010, 02:06 PM
RustyAxe RustyAxe is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 6,312
Default

All the talk of mastering aside ... I also use a Zoom H2. You can normalize right in the unit. While it's not mastering, it will increase the volume, and I think works better for me than compression and such.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 03-21-2010, 02:11 PM
wthurman's Avatar
wthurman wthurman is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Louisville, Kentucky
Posts: 10,620
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RustyAxe View Post
All the talk of mastering aside ... I also use a Zoom H2. You can normalize right in the unit. While it's not mastering, it will increase the volume, and I think works better for me than compression and such.
The amount of compression used today is really nauseating. Why is it used? Radio stations want it "louder" because people tend to change the station less when it's louder overall. Never mind if it erases the last vestiges of dynamics in a genre that already has reduced dynamics by its very nature.

One day, some artist will shock the world by re-discovering the crescendo and diminuendo (decrescendo) as a musical tool. Or not.
__________________
Wade


Worry less about the guitars you want. Play the guitar you have more.
The answer will come, and it will not be what you expect.

A guitar is a tool, and a friend. But it is not the answer.

It is the beginning.


Current Guitars:


Taylor 716C Modified
Voyage-Air VAOM-04

CD: The Bayleys: From The Inside
CDBaby
Amazon
Also available from iTunes



Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 03-21-2010, 03:08 PM
makikogi makikogi is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Silver Spring, MD
Posts: 913
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by shawlie View Post
Things like limiting, compression, etc. - I try to use them sometimes, but in the end just turn them off again. I have no idea what I'm doing with those things, and so think it's best to leave them alone for me. I have been reading a lot on-line, but it still seems fairly complex.
definitely worth learning....I think of it like high speed internet, not essential to everyday living, but once you have it, it's hard to go without it.
__________________
Mark

Rainsong WS1000
Taylor "T6" Custom w/added element UST
USA Tele Deluxe
Ibanex SRX-500
Vox AC-15

Korg Pitch Black (2x), Fishman Aura 16, BBE Sonic Stomp, LR Baggs PADI, Boss TU-2, Sansamp Tech21 Bass Driver, Boss GE-7 Bass EQ, MXR Micro Amp, Keely BD-2, Fulltone OCD, Fulltone Fulldrive 2 Mosfet, Boss DD-20, BBE supacharger

Up next: Empress EQ, Radial J48
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 03-22-2010, 07:04 AM
RustyAxe RustyAxe is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 6,312
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by wthurman View Post
The amount of compression used today is really nauseating. Why is it used? Radio stations want it "louder" because people tend to change the station less when it's louder overall. Never mind if it erases the last vestiges of dynamics in a genre that already has reduced dynamics by its very nature
Exactly, and is why I prefer to normalize. Dynamic range is preserved rather than compressed. Riding in the car with my wife as she was listening to a country music station I noticed that it was almost impossible to distinguish the various instruments in the mix from each other, the vocals were universally over-compressed, dynamic range was limited (just loud overall), vocals were pitch-corrected, and harmonies were electronically generated. No matter, the song only had three chords, and the range lead vocal was within an octave. And THAT kind of crap gets air time ... sheesh!
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 03-22-2010, 09:44 AM
Pokiehat Pokiehat is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 181
Default

Volume, mastering and compression are often misunderstood terms and its easy to use them inappropriately. The traditional role of a compressor was to reduce dynamic range. They were designed for broadcast radio where people would come on air and talk. They would sometimes move too close to the mic or raise their voice which would result in a sudden increase in volume. To stop this, you hook up a compressor before the desk input and define a threshold level beyond which the compressor will 'suppress' the output. The magnitude of level reduction is dependent on the compression ratio.

An example to show you how this works:

You record 30 seconds of guitar which builds from pianissimo to forte and the difference in loudness is too much. Rather like a film where some people are whispering and you turn up the volume to hear what they are saying. Then it cuts to commercial and the volume of the adverts blow your head off.

Lets say the peak volume is -3dB and the threshold of the compressor is -13dB with a ratio of 10:1. This means that for every 10dB over the threshold, the compressor will suppress the output to 1dB over the threshold.

In this case the peak signal at the input of the compressor is 10dB over the threshold so the peak level at the output of the compressor will be suppressed to -12dB. Thats a 9dB reduction in dynamic range and it also means you gain 9dB of headroom.

What is headroom? Headroom is the difference between 0dB (the clipping point) and the peak signal level. You can use up this 12dB of headroom in a number of ways, one of which is to normalise the track to 0dB (thus gaining +12dB of volume).

Using a compressor to squeeze loudness out of a multitrack recording does not take into account that it has been well mixed. Therefore it is entirely possible that your mix is quiet because it simply been mixed badly with poor headroom management and poor gainstaging. One of the byproducts of a good mix is that its nice and loud before you have to resort to compression.

Its probably worth mentioning that some compressors these days are multipurpose and can do many things besides dynamic range reduction. Some compressors can be used to create a gating effect (these are called Expanders). Some compressors are capable of compressing to ratios less than 1:1 so they can actually increase dynamic range. These are termed upward compressors whereas the traditional compressor is called a downward compressor.

Some compressors can be turned effectively into limiters by having massive ratios (greater than 10:1) and very fast attack/release speeds. These are typically used to prevent 'overs' or clipping transients. Basically all live sound rigs have limiters before the output to prevent feedback and transients from destroying PA stacks and everyone's ears.

Finally, mastering is a sort of mystical term these days where the lines are increasingly blurred where production ends and post production begins. In the digital era its all really a seamless part of the song writing process since you can rearrange things in the mastering phase since all editing is non destructive.

Mastering involves much much more than compression and it is a discipline unto itself. I personally wouldn't go there unless you know what you are doing and it is best handled by someone other than you. More often than not, people are far too close to their own work to be able to do this well and consistently.
Reply With Quote
Reply

  The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > RECORD

Thread Tools





All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:21 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, The Acoustic Guitar Forum
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=