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#16
09-25-2020, 01:52 PM
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I've never liked Taylor necks, and have really liked only two, both of witch were in excess of six grand. Their strength to me is also their weakness, the basic bright tone. I also suspect they save money building them. With the volume Taylor produces, saving $20 a unit would be huge. So having something new for marketing, even if in reality half will like it better, and half won't, that sounds pretty much like Taylors do, is benificial to the bottom line.
Taylors are terrific gigging machines in a band context. Love or hate the ES 2 system, it sounds good enough and is convenient. Bright cuts through a band mix. I think Cole Clark has them beat with the electronics, but Taylors work. I know people who own them just for this reason. They play other guitars at home but grab a Taylor on the way out the door. The fact they aren't my thing does not diminish the value and what they can bring to the table. I do like old ones better, but I always like old guitars better.
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2007 Martin D 35 Custom 1970 Guild D 35 1965 Epiphone Texan 2011 Santa Cruz D P/W Pono OP 30 D parlor Pono OP12-30 Pono MT uke Goldtone Paul Beard squareneck resophonic Fluke tenor ukulele Boatload of home rolled telecasters "Shut up and play ur guitar" Frank Zappa 
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#17
09-25-2020, 04:28 PM
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I don't disagree with anything you've written, Br1ck, but I will say that my recent purchase of a K14ce (when I thought I had sworn off of Taylor for good since my tastes run more vintage tone now) showed me that by changing out of Elixirs, which are bright and chimey, to literally any other string will help tame that brightness tremendously (currently have DR Sunbeams which add a surprising amount of mids to the koa b/s tone).
Elixirs by themselves are bright and chimey on any guitar, but with Taylors they seem to have this compounding effect and become even more so.
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Santa Cruz | Huss & Dalton | Lakewood Fan (and customer) of: -Charmed Life Picks -Organic Sounds Select Guitars -Down Home Guitars
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#18
09-25-2020, 04:42 PM
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I own a 2019 314 v brace and it made me a believer in the hype. I wouldn't expect any of the other builders to make one though.
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#19
09-25-2020, 04:58 PM
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- V-Bracing is a marketing strategy - Taylor is looking to carve a new path to brand themselves as distinct and, to them and their fans’ minds, innovative.
- No other manufacturer will follow them for that reason - unless sales are SO dominant that popularity dictates otherwise. Gibson didn’t switch to X-bracing until 1930 (I had a ‘31 - swoon.), which was *decades* after Martin developed it, because during the Depression, Martin’s X-Bracing won out on sales. - Taylors and their “modern” voicing are constructed *very* differently from Martins, Gibsons, and most other makers. They have their tops and backs under a bit of stress in the build. This type of build places *much* more emphasis on the design vs. the wood type used, which is why Taylors sound so darn consistent, and why the other makers’ guitars reflect more of the woods used. My $.02
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An old Gibson and a couple of old Martins; a couple of homebrew Tele's
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#20
09-25-2020, 05:07 PM
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I tried them out for a bit and they weren't my thing.
Still have 5 other Taylors that I love.
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#21
09-25-2020, 05:08 PM
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To add to my earlier points, I don't know if this is just owing to Taylor QC overall or the v-bracing, but on my former 914ce and current K14c, it's the only one of my guitars I own that I can put my G7th ART capo anywhere between frets 1-7 and not have to retune the low E consistently. And in fact, the few frets I've tested in the couple of days I've owned the K14, not only does the low E stay in tune relative to the rest of the strings, but all of the strings are actually in tune (or within one slightly flickering red bar on my clip-on TC-Electronics Polytune which for me is close enough for government work).
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Santa Cruz | Huss & Dalton | Lakewood Fan (and customer) of: -Charmed Life Picks -Organic Sounds Select Guitars -Down Home Guitars
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#22
09-25-2020, 05:11 PM
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Quote:
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Santa Cruz | Huss & Dalton | Lakewood Fan (and customer) of: -Charmed Life Picks -Organic Sounds Select Guitars -Down Home Guitars
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#23
09-25-2020, 05:34 PM
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Quote:
If V-Bracing, or the craft variations you list got similarly hot, makers would incorporate them. Sound reasonable?
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An old Gibson and a couple of old Martins; a couple of homebrew Tele's
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#24
09-25-2020, 05:36 PM
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I love Taylor but they reinvent themselves every few years. This is the 4th or 5th (can't remember exactly) bracing redesign in the past 20 or so years.
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#25
09-25-2020, 05:39 PM
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Quote:
If that was not your intent, I misunderstood your post.
__________________
Santa Cruz | Huss & Dalton | Lakewood Fan (and customer) of: -Charmed Life Picks -Organic Sounds Select Guitars -Down Home Guitars
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#26
09-25-2020, 05:48 PM
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Quote:
I think V-Bracing points out a truth - lots of bracing types can work, and X has been traditional. Heck, I love my old Ladder-braced Harmony - but that’s been decided to be Lesser. I think it also points out that if you build the way Taylor does, they can make a innovative bracing work for them. Hey - it is a bold strategy and it will be a Harvard Business School Case to see how they do. I wish them luck - their success is Guitar Success, so Yay. I don’t find their guitars are for me, but that’s just me.
__________________
An old Gibson and a couple of old Martins; a couple of homebrew Tele's
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#28
09-25-2020, 06:01 PM
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So if Martin has offered rear, mid, forward, scalloped, non-scalloped, GE, and Authentic bracing on the D-18 and D-28, what does that mean for Martin? It's not reinventing anything, it's just fine tuning. V-Class is completely different than tweaking existing forms of X-bracing. Not my thing, but I applaud them for thinking outside the box and being innovative. For such a large manufacturer whose reputation could potentially be at stake, that's a big deal.
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#29
09-25-2020, 06:04 PM
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I am not advocating if v-b is better/worse, that's up to each individual to decide. As I pointed out in my NGD for my K14c, I traded in a 914ce v-class early this year, and also played a dozen or so v-class off the wall in various local shops, all of which were good guitars, but unexciting to me in terms of what I was looking for.
When I stumbled upon the one v-b guitar that sang to me (and it beat the pants off of what should have been it's twin, a K14ce of the same model year), it's more than likely due to the tonewoods that were used on it, and maybe since it was BTO it went through a better set of craftspeople like Martin Custom Shop does, so I don't think this one great guitar vindicates v-b in my mind. It just goes to show that v-b, just like x-b and l-b and any other -b, is still subject to the quality of the tonewoods and the skill of those putting it all together. In Taylor's (and specifically Andy Powers's) defense, I do think they see v-b as true innovation, and of course will put their full force of marketing behind it because...well...that's what companies can and should do. But I don't think Andy's driving force was "oh hey Taylor sales are declining [I don't know if they were, this is hypothetical] let me come up with an all new bracing to drive sales back up." I think he had a goal in mind, I think his new bracing achieves at least some of it (it is my best intonated guitar out of the box, and the higher up the fretboard you go the more it distinguishes itself from the rest of my guitars, and it's also the most capo friendly guitar I've ever owned--similar to the 914ce v-b in that the low E doesn't get pulled out of whack, and overall in-tuneness stays very close to on-point) and these are all measurable/audible things. But I also feel that for open chords, every single one of the v-bs I have tried have fallen short...except for this one K14c I bought (which is why it's now part of my arsenal). I wouldn't call myself a Taylor fan just yet, they'd have to build a lot more like the one I have in my hands. But I am a fan of this particular Taylor I own.
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Santa Cruz | Huss & Dalton | Lakewood Fan (and customer) of: -Charmed Life Picks -Organic Sounds Select Guitars -Down Home Guitars
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#30
09-25-2020, 09:52 PM
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Quote:
I don't think V Class Bracing is/was a marketing strategy. I think V Class Bracing was a production efficiency/cost reduction/profit enhancement strategy that Taylor built a marketing strategy around to help sell it as a ground breaking innovation...which it really isn't. Back in one of the initial big V Class bracing threads here on the AGF a year or so ago, several members mentioned that there have been a number of acoustic guitars, both flattop and arch top that have used very similar looking V style bracing patterns going back into the early 1900's if I remember correctly. So...no...no big innovation. And no...no real actual intonation improvement beyond the fact that V Class bracing does seem to significantly cut down on the "wolf notes/tones" that guitars sometimes exhibit up the neck, which does give the aural sense of improved intonation...and I guess, in that limited sense, it does improve that aspect of intonation, but it doesn't really improve it the way, for instance the Buzz Feiten system attempts to address the real issue of the tempered scale tuning/intonation issues. West Virginia luthier Bob Thompson also uses some form of intonation control system that works really really well I am told. But back to the story...So here is why I feel that this was a total production/cost efficiencies move by Taylor. So about what, three years? or four years? before Andy Powers unveils V-Class, Andy had revoiced the Taylor CV...with relief rout...X bracing pattern on the 800/900/Presentation models to absolute rousing success. I called it the Andy Powers APCV Deluxe bracing. You know it is his re-voiced bracing if your guitar has the much much smaller and angled back braces, and the top bracing is much smaller and lighter as well. These re-voiced guitars really did have a very very good, very different voice from the previous Taylor X bracing designs, very lush and warm tone, nice deep bass response and with a ton of sustain, very much in the realm of Goodall voicing, and folks just really loved it, and there was near universal acclaim for the great job that Andy Powers had done. So it was a huge success for Andy Powers, and the plans told to the public at the time, were that Taylor was going to spead that new X Brace re-voicing down the line into the 500/600/700 series, and perhaps further, and of course it was available on any BTO Taylor. But then...BOOM...about 3 years? after the SUPER successful re-voiced APCV Deluxe X brace launch, here comes the new mysterious V Class teaser ad's, and then the grand reveal of the V Class system. And maybe the biggest shock in all of the hoopla about V Class from Taylor, was their announcement that they were going to put it on ALL of the guitars, and effectively discontinue their X Bracing systems on all but just a few lower end models...again, if I remember correctly. But...unlike the APCV Deluxe bracing, the new V Class bracing has NOT met with near universal acclaim and approval. It has been, at best, a mixed bag in terms of how Taylor customers and fans and even some dealers have received it, but Taylor is clearly forging ahead with V Class system and the discontinuation of the APCV Deluxe X Bracing system, no matter what the overall popular response is, including a great many Taylor aficionados...both players and dealers...about the plans to stop making X braced models in the ultra popular mid and upper level instruments. And here is an interesting tidbit. In one of the Taylor produced stories I read about the V-Class bracing design effort, it was mentioned that Andy Powers had actually started working on the V-Class bracing system very shortly after he came on board at Taylor. So his work on V Class started right away and may have pre-dated his APCV Deluxe X brace re-vamp, or his 18 series jumbo body shape re-design. Or at least, they all started around the same time...right at the beginning of the Andy Powers era. So for me, the big question was always...WHY? Why come out with the V-Class shortly after you had done such a great X Brace re-vamp job that everyone was really excited and happy with? And why come out with V Class and say it is way better a design...when it really isn't...it has advantages and dis-advantages compared to the APCV Deluxe X Bracing. And why oh why come out with V Class, to a fairly lukewarm overall reception, even to this day, especially compared to the APCV Deluxe roll out reception...and then drop the bomb that Taylor is going V Class only on most of their product line? Why not just offer both? Offer V-Class and offer APCV Deluxe X. They sound and respond very differently from one another, offering very distinct voices and dynamic response on any of the Taylor model lines and wood combos. Seems like a super big win win offering both, and with just two bracing designs, still super easy to manufacture in a production line. I mean, by contrast, CF Martin has something like 5 or 6 normal X bracing patterns, plus their A Frame X bracing pattern, and it doesn't seem to be causing them any production issues. Taylor would have only 2, and in as highly mechanized and efficient a factory as Taylor has, that would seem to be a complete non problem. So back to WHY we go...or I go...why? Well if you have been watching Taylor closely through the last 25 years or so, you know that they have slowly at first, but ever so steadily, and with increasing speed, ramped up their factory production and factory production efficiency to pretty much State Of The Art levels, including the design of the highly production efficient factory and equipment in it...but...at the same time, they have reduced and/or gone away from most all of the interesting limited and custom edition guitars that they used to make from the late 80's to the early/mid 2000's. Taylor used to do a lot of really cool custom designs on body models and inlays, and wood combos, plus the R. Taylor line, and the BTO offerings. Gradually...or not so...over the last 15 years, the creative work that Taylor used to do has faded away, giving way to more mass production based offerings...much to my, and many other Taylor fans chagrin. And you do that for one main reason. Cost efficiency per unit of production. You make your production unit...guitar...more simply, more quickly and efficiently...youz maka da more money. Dolla, dolla, billz yallz. And that...IMO...is where V Class Bracing comes in, and why Andy Powers had been working on it from pretty much the getgo, and why Taylor is flying pretty much solo with it on their "units of production". If you look at it, it is a very simple, nearly one piece design that can easily be pre-manufactured in large quantities, and installed on the guitar with extreme production efficiency, much more so than the APCV Deluxe X bracing pattern which takes much more production time to make and install per unit of production {;-). That is going to save them/make them a lot of money per guitar, and thus evidently make it well worth dropping the APCV Deluxe bracing, even though it was, and still is, so well liked by Taylor players, and even though it wouldn't be all that much more less efficient to make runs of both bracing patterns in large batches. Or would it? When Taylor makes near 100,000 guitars a year, X amount of $ save per guitar adds up real quick like, and this is production direction then have been heading for a long time now. Dolla dolla billz yallz... I guess we shall see how it all shakes out for them over the next several years. I just fondly remember Taylor in the 90's and early 2000's...their Golden Era for me. duff Be A Player...Not A Polisher Last edited by mcduffnw; 09-26-2020 at 12:23 PM.
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