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#16
04-22-2008, 07:34 PM
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1) Simultaneous Inputs. Minimum 2, probably more. If you're going to sing and play by youself, you might want 3. Having, say, two friends over, along with yourself, 6 channels would be good (one guitar mic and one vocal mic for each). Adding harmonies, extra tracks, etc. will not increase the number of simultaneous inputs you need. Adding drums, however, can be done with 2 tracks or as many as 7 or 8 simultaneous tracks. Given your needs and desires, and keeping in mind you want to start up a notch or two, I'd suggest a 4 or greater simultaneous input interface. A Digidesign Digi003 would fit the bill nicely. 2) Mics. The Shure KSM44 is one fine mic. Good choice. Of course there are many others, and I'm sure you've researched them. I'd avoid the Shure SDs you mentioned. Consider a pair of Peluso CEMC6, Shure SM81, AKG 481B, SE Electronics SE3, Oktava MC-012, Josephson C42 or the soon to be released ADK modular mic bodies with SD capsules (nice mics - LD capsules available too). 3) Preamps. The four Digi003 preamps are quite good, and you can take them up a notch with the Black Lion modifications. I posted some comparisons of those preamps with a few high end preamps here a while back. You might take a listen. Some excellent mid priced outboard preamps include the FMR RNP (2 channels - $500), Sytek (4 channels - $800), Rane MS-1B (1 channel - $150). There are many others. The Digi003 can handle 4 additional preamp channels from outboard preamps (in analog) with simple patch cables, which would raise your simultaneous preamp inputs up to 8. 4) Converters. You simply don't need the exotic converters. They show their superiority when you are dealing with, say, 24 or 36 tracks. If you are recording and mixing just a few tracks, it doesn't matter that much. Still, you want good converters. The ones in the Digi003 are quite nice and, again, they can be taken up a notch with the Black Lion modifications. 5) Monitors. Don't scrimp here. Look at Dynaudio BM5a (or BM6a) and the Adam S7, among others. 6) Room. Important. Very important. Analyze the room and add appropriate treatment. Bass traps (fo to Ethan Winer's website) are key, along with some other treatment. 7) Software. Most interfaces come with recording, editing, mixing and mastering software. You may choose to add higher quality eq and reverb plugins. You can always download demos and check them out first. 8) Computer. Get a good one, with sufficient horsepower, memory and storage. 9) Miscellaneous. Don't forget to budget for cabling, stands, a studio workstation. Last edited by sdelsolray; 04-22-2008 at 07:46 PM. 
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#17
04-22-2008, 07:37 PM
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Room-wise, I've got lots of options.Various ceiling heights, and large or small rooms available. Bob
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#18
04-22-2008, 07:40 PM
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You'll be quite amazed at how quickly things snowball. I was in the same position about a year ago. I just wanted to record maybe 3 tracks at most (a couple of guitar tracks and maybe a vocal), so I purchased an inexpensive interface from a fellow forum member, borrowed a couple of mics from church and off I went. It was great for a few of months
 . I realized pretty quickly that I waaaay undershot. I've expanded a great deal, but still haven't spent a lot of money. I've purchased a Lexicon Omega (actually I got it for Christmas), an AKG Perception 200, and a couple of mic stands (I got a really nice boom stand from musicians friend for less than $25, and oh yeah, it came with a mic, clip and cable too!) I'm just using my home pc because I didn't want to shell out the money for a dedicated computer system. I don't aspire to be a recording star. I just want to make some decent recordings for friends and family. It's been a ton of fun, and it's really provided me with some great relaxing time and growth. Above all else, have fun with it
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#19
04-22-2008, 09:32 PM
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 I just bought a full P/A system, and spent $1.5k on cables/snakes alone. There's really no end when you get into this stuff. I had originally hoped to equip the studio, and buy the P/A for no more than $5k. So far, I'm at $8.5k with the P/A alone, and I still need stage-monitors.  Bob
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#21
04-22-2008, 11:40 PM
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2. The Shure KSM44 LDC seemed like a no-brainer. Excellent reviews, Shure reliability, and my local dealer carries them. I want to stay with mics I can audition in person for the time being. I've read great things about the Peluso, Geffell, and quite a few others. 3. I'm tempted to try an FMR RNP. The guys on Tweakheadz really like that pre, but some of the guys on Gearslutz say it can be noisey at higher gain, especially the last 10db. I definitely want to work with the pre's in my Allen & Heath MixWiz3 before buying a hi-end pre. Besides the Pendulum MDP-1a, I've also considered Avalon, Solid State Logic, Great River, and Universal Audio. 4. I'll check out that Black Lion mod for the Digi 003. 5. Monitors, now here's where I get REAL picky  The Klein & Hummel (K&H)0300 series, are the best I've heard to date. Outstanding loudspeaker, in a class by itself, but very pricey at roughly $4500/pair. I do have a pair of wonderful monitors from Spendor Audio, hand-built in the UK. It's the Spendor SA3, hard-wired, bi-amped. Outstanding speakers. These are large studio monitors however (mid 80's model), not near-field. Cost me a bundle too, but stunning imaging, detailed hi-end, and rock-solid bottom-end. Cabinets are totally inert. Not for every room however.I had been keen on trying the DynAudio BM5a near-field monitors, but was totally disappointed with what I heard. Very harsh upper end, and lacking detail, and a disappointing bottom-end. I hadn't expected that due to past experience with DynAudio speakers. I A/B'd the DynAudio and K&H using the same source, same material, same room. I may need headphones too, and I want to check-out the Grado's. I have an old set of Stax Electrostatics, and those were incredible, but unfortunately, not very reliable. 6. I'll check out Ethan Winers' site. Thks. 7. If I go with a Mac, I think I'll try GarageBand to get a quick start, and progress to Logic 8. Apparently, there's been a big price-drop, and tons of plug-ins added. Apparently Apple/Apogee/and Logic were designed to work well together, and I'm aware Apple now owns Logic. I've just started looking at the Apogee line-up. I definitely want solid stability and support there, so that combo looks appealing at the moment. 8. I'll buy a dedicated computer for the studio. The big 24" I-Mac looks great, and I get an educational institution discount. My final choice there will probably depend on how much cpu utilization is required. I'd like to off-load as much as possible to the outboard devices. 9. Cables and stands are covered. I've got K&M stands with my "live sound" rig.(boom mic, and speaker stands)
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#22
04-23-2008, 12:11 PM
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I just wanted to thank you all for your contributions and insights to this thread.
 I just got off the phone with a fellow at my local music store (Steve's Music/ Montreal). Apparently, there's a book called "Recording for Dummies" or something similar. Hopefully, this will fill in all the gaps between the bits of knowledge I've acquired thru web-surfing. I feel I need a solid foundation before proceeding with equipment purchases. That said, I'll still continue researching hardware, and possibly purchase some basics. Possibly an iMac and an Apogee Duet. That would let me tinker with GarageBand3 for a while, then possibly progress to Logic Studio/Apogee Ensemble. Bob
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#23
04-23-2008, 12:21 PM
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I just read the reviews on the Omega that you gave a link to. Sure was a bunch of dissatisfied people with it. I too am interested in an inexpensive recording setup, but I dont need a boat anchor. Have you had good experiences with the omega?
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#24
04-23-2008, 12:37 PM
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as alot of people are saying, and as you know now there are tons and tons of ways to go, the most important thing IMHO is to find a setup you feel comfortable with and that fits your needs and workflow as well as obviously being stable etc.
that being said, and from personal hands on experience, i saw you mentioned the RME FF 800. i have had one actually 2 for years. the RME is one of the best all round converters there is. rock solid drivers, great sound, hugely flexible routing, good support etc http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Fireface800/ obviously you know you will get 8 inputs and 8 outputs, plus 4 very good albeit clean (not colored) pre amps, plus a host of other connections. the FW drivers, latency etc are just great for any DAW i have used it with, CUbase 4, Sonar 7, Reaper, SAW, etc. so IF you need that many inputs and outputs etc it is THE way to go IMHO. its less than apogee, lavry, etc and i think for anyone its a great piece of gear. if you need less check out the RME 400 http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Fireface400/ either way that takes care of your FW connection to the PC and gives you your AD/DA and pre amps however if you are looking for a warmer, tubier sound, you might need a stand along front end unit, one i would recommend is the UA LA 610 or the Sebatron Thorax. I am just a one man show so i like the combo units that give you a pre, eq, and comp in one piece, some have other things like my Pendulum Quartet has a desser and i can use each piece individually, but i think thats over kill for starting out. http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/LA610/ http://mercenary.com/sebathorax.html http://mercenary.com/penquar.html I think you mic collection is good and you can't go wrong, however there of course are tons of mics out there and you really need to try some out one thing i would DEF recommend is BUY from a place that will allow you to TRY STUFF OUT till you find what you are looking for. a couple of online shops that will do this are first and foremeost www.mercenary.com these guys are simply the best and most knowledgable for gear there is, however they do not have quite the selection of say a sweetwater (whis is also good www.sweetwater.com please TRY stuff before buying or you will end up in the cycle of buy it, hate it, sell it for a loss buy something else etc. i am assuming you have a PC? i see you said you might go mac, i have a PC and a MAC and have recorded on both. I think cost wise you can get a great quad core PC for less than a MAC and the MAC has never really given me anything more than i need or want from the PC. I have a quad core q6600 4 gigs ram XP home tweaked for audio 4 500 gig SATA 2 7200 drives etc some really good DAW for music PC makers are ADK and sonica http://www.adkproaudio.com/ http://www.shop-sonica.com/ i would highly recommend if you are not a PC expert to have one of these guys build you one that will work flawlessy right out of the gate, run silent and be well supported i run cubase 4, sonar 7 PE, Reaper and a ton of plugs and other stuff on it and it rocks. So if i assume you have a PC for now with a FW port i would say check out the RME stuff, and possibly couple it with a front end channel strip (this way to you can bypass the pre's on the RME and run the channel strip into the back but STILL have the 4 pre amps on the RME thus giving you 5 pre amps into your DAW) yout mics etc one thing you can do, and be sort of industry standard is get a Pro Tools LE rig, the complete package, with a front end mixer with automated faders, the software and plugs included? this might be simplest than building your own http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Digi003Fact/ not sure if this is any help because of all the variables its very hard to nail down what will work for you one thing you can try out right now is Reaper, its a 50 dollar program that is incredible that will allow you to run it for as long as you want till you decide to buy if you want to just get you hands wet and not spend alot and if you have a PC, get Reaper downloaded and something like an M-Audio 410 FW interface and you will be working for 300 bucks or so http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Firewire410/ http://reaper.fm/download.php the OTHER way you can try out is try something like the yamaha N12 mixer, if you are from the old days its an analog console that comes with cubase AI4 software FREE with it and it is designed to integrate with cubase perfectly i have this with a ton of other stuff and just the N12 with cubase AI4 takes care of everything to get you started and gives you a stellar hands on analog/digital mixer fully integrated with your software already. http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/n12/ check out the movies on it http://files.keyfax.com/n_vids/n_series.html http://yamahasynth.com/products/n8n12/movies.html i would actually go the N12 or N8 way if i were just trying to get something together and was used to the analog days more so than now, plus it will teach you cubase but give you the familiar hands on of an analog console here is a great link where the yamaha lead guy is actually supporting it and youc anask questions http://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-mu...-n-series.html anyway, if you have any questions you can ask away, i am sure alot of good people here can help also, this is just from someone who has been doing this for a few years now and made LOTS of mistakes haha i have a pretty nice home studio now that combines digital and analog worlds and is alot of fun because EVERYTHING works well together good luck! ps - a well treated and tuned room will make more difference than just about anything, i agree with ethan winer, check out his site
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#25
04-23-2008, 02:45 PM
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From a product or quality standpoint, I've had no problems at all. They do give very specific installation instructions. (Not complicated, not tedious, but specific.) If you don't follow those instructions, I think you're going to have problems, and it looked like a couple of the complaints came from improper installations. The Omega is a computer interface. You'd typically use it with studio monitors of some type. Back when I was using Cubase LE, I would sometimes boot my computer using just my computer speakers, rather than the Omega with monitors. I had no problems with Cubase LE. I later upgraded to Cubase Studio4 and again had no problems until the day I tried bringing up Cubase with just my computer speakers hooked up. I later found that Cubase didn't want to talk to the Omega anymore. The solution was simple after poking around a bit -- I just had to reset my ASIO? drivers to Cubase. That last paragraph may have confused more than clarified. Overall, based on my experience, I would recommend the Omega. The Omega's not the only product out there though. There are a lot of good, inexpensive interfaces these days.
__________________
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#26
04-23-2008, 05:24 PM
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Let me throw in a vote in favor of the KSM141 you mentioned in the original post, Bobby1. I've fooled with a few mics including the SM81, and I'd call the KSM141 a step up from that beloved old warhorse.
I gotta say that after reading various internet recording fora for a number of years, that "flavor of the month" and magical thinking are rampant, and that extremely subtle (and possibly unimportant) differences are regularly heralded as "huge, man!" Bring all your skepticism with you when you wade into Gearslutz, fer sure. Look at it this way - the performance is by far by far by far (it's hard to say it enough times) the most important part of the equation. The sound of the instruments, voices, and room are by far the second most important. If your recording does not capture (and even flatter) the sound in the room, moving the mic a few inches will have at least as much impact as selecting a different $300-500 SDC. If the mic and preamp offer low (enough) noise, low (enough) distortion, and good (enough) linearity, you're home free. And a/d converters - don't get me started. People cut great recordings on ADATs, fer goodness sake - the A/D on your junky motherboard soundcard is vastly better than those kloodgey monsters. If you have a few moments, you might listen to a few samples: A bunch of mics: http://www.fxguidry.com/mictest1/index.htm The KSM44 is in there, along with some Neumanns and an SM57. Do you hear one mic that would make a recording unusable? Or one mic that would make a mediocre performance into a good one? Here are three mic preamps, including the RNP you mentioned: http://www.fxguidry.com/pblog/index....y070224-133138 If you listen to those samples, does one preamp clearly impress you more than the others? Would any of them ruin (or save) a recording? Recording is very rewarding, and the gear that goes with it is fascinating, but just like playing the guitar, artistic concept and skill developed through practice are a LOT more important than the gear. I spent a lot of time and money searching for _the_ magic microphone/preamp/converter - but the time I spent recording finally turned out to be the magic ingredient. Fran (the recording curmudgeon)
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#27
04-23-2008, 06:14 PM
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#28
04-23-2008, 07:59 PM
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Bobbie,
Given your Apogee choice and your discussion about monitors above, I may have underestimated your overall budget. If that's true, you may want to take your microphone search up another level. Mercenary just released a SD mic (KM69) that is (supposed to be) quite wonderful - a true replacement for the classic Neumann KM84i of which the only mic to come close since is the Microtech Gefell M300. They're just south of $2k a pair. The Peluso P28 mid diaphragm tube mics are stellar at about $1,500 a pair (I have a pair of these - they are truly special - inspired by the vintage Neuman KM56 and AGK C28 tube mics). Then there's Schoeps, Microtech Gefell and DPA SD mics. I have pairs of Schoeps CMC6/MK4 and Gefell M294. Top of the food chain in every respect. $3k+ per pair (darn that Euro). As to tube preamps, you may have an incomplete understanding of them. They can be "fat", but that's usually when you drive them hard, which is part of their design capabilities. At more normal levels, the good one are hi-fi, euphonic, sensual and pleasing, with a bit of 2nd order harmonics added. Coupled with the slower slew rate typical of tube preamps, the sound is slightly rounded, and in a good way. The top ones include Manley, DW Fearn, Mercury, Pendulum, and a host of others. Excellent tube preamps with great prices include Sebatron and Hamptone. Indeed, the Hamptone and Pendulum MDP-1a are nearly indistinguishable, at least to my ears, yet the Hamptone is less than 1/2 the price new and assembled (Hamptone offers kits for your assembly too for their tube pre and their JFET pre). But don't rule out solid state preamps. The really good ones are majestic. Basically there are very clean/transparent ones ranging to character/more colored ones, and many flavors in between. The top units include Millenia Media, Forrsell, John Hardy, GML, Great River, API, Neve, and many many others. Solid state pres are generally less expensive than tube pres, per channel, mostly due to parts costs. Yes, the FMR RNP is a bit noisy at full gain, but you probably would never need full gain from that unit given your uses. Again, take another look at your mic selections. Ty Ford posted recently on this board (the Peluso on NPR thread). He has more knowledge and better ears than all of us put together. He used to say something that I first heard many years ago - "If you can't hear the difference it doesn't matter". Last edited by sdelsolray; 04-23-2008 at 09:53 PM.
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#29
04-24-2008, 12:50 AM
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I'd love to check some of those mics out, and will probably do so at one point. I should clear something up at this juncture however. Basically, I'm just looking for an overall direction, or plan. In general, I think I'm on the right track, but it'll be a while before I actually take the plunge, and the gear acquisition process will occur over a period of a year or so I presume. I don't anticipate buying anything for at least two to three more months.
The Apogee thing is just an interest at this point, and I like what I'm seeing so far. I'm attracted to the overall integration and strong customer support. I'm also hoping they come out with a control surface like the DigiDesign, which I also like. Basically, I've just started looking at this general price-point. Six months ago, I considered it foolish for me to go there, but now I'm more comfortable with it. I also recognize that I'll probably stub my toe a few times along the way, but that's not a big deal. If I don't like something, I'll just sell it and buy something else. I have no friends who are into this stuff, and I'm quite a distance from the closest well-equipped music store. Although I've mentioned what some might see as pretty "high-end" gear, I think I'm being rather consevative in my initial selections. The Shure KSM44 is one example. I've never seen a bad word written about this mic, and it's more affordable than the AKG c-414 which it is often compared to. Will it suit my voice? Who knows until I give it a whirl. I figured the KSM44 would be a rather "safe" purchase, in the sense that it would sell quickly if I decide it's not for me. Frankly though, I'm just not that fussy. If I'm reasonably happy with it, I doubt I'd lust for something significantly better.(famous last words )Today, I spoke to a very helpful and knowledgeable fellow at Steve's Music store, in Montreal. We briefly discussed my mic choices along with a few other subjects, like the Apogee/Mac/Logic thing. Over the phone, this fellow recommended I at least try the Neumann TLM 103 before making my final decision. He felt that this mic would better suit what he referred to as my "baritone" voice. Personally, I don't see myself as a baritone, but I can come across that way over the phone at times(proximity???). I suppose I could try it out at the store, but I just don't see myself singing in a store full of customers. This is something I'd rather do in the privacy of my home, or at the very least, in a sound-proof booth at the store if one is available. Some of our local stores, don't allow returms on mics for hygienic reasons. Now, my overall budget may seem high to some, but a big chunk of that will be the computer itself. There's no getting around that if I want a dedicated music computer. If I go with the iMac($3k.), at least GarageBand3 is included. Then if I add the Apogee Duet and Logic Studio, that's another $1.k, and probably a more complete software package than the MBox2 Pro "factory", for not much more money. Add $2k for mics, and I'm off to a pretty good start I'd think. We're at $6k plus tax for the essentials (roughly $6,800. here in Quebec/ 12.8% sales tax). That doesn't include a hi-end pre, nor the Apogee Ensemble which would add another $3k. Now we're at $10k with no monitors, and nothing which would strike me as particularly extravagant, except maybe the hi-end pre. I'd probably be in the same ballpark if I went with the DidiDesign 003 factory, and a new PC, or the RME FF800. If that's what it takes, then so be it. That little Apogee Duet by the way, has 75 db gain in the mic pre's.  Do I have deep pockets? Nope. How commited was I to acquiring the P/A and home studio? Well, I came out of retirement and took on a very physical temporary full-time job locally, in order to pay for all this gear. Not only will I have the ability to pursue my music passion for years to come once I resume my retirement, but I also lost over 40 lbs along the way, and I'm in better shape now than I've been in the last 15 years. How's that for commitment? Bob
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#30
04-24-2008, 04:32 AM
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 Actually there's a lot of great advice in this thread. Copy and paste into your favourite word processer, print, stick on wall, lean back and consider. Bob also said; Quote:
Cheers!
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