String tension and feel- Something I hadn't considered

[vindibona1]

As I'm in the middle of testing Santa Cruz strings I had the opportunity to talk to Richard Hoover for almost 20 minutes today. I currently have the SC mid tensions on my Taylor 614ce and SC low tensions on my 814ceDLX.

As we discussed how the strings sounded and felt I told him that I felt very little difference in the feel between the mid and low tension strings on identically set up guitar. His reply was that while the strings have an engineered tension and there are 7 pounds total difference between the two sets, something to be aware of is the flex of the top. Some tops will have more give while some will be stiffer.

It made total sense. I can relate it to setting up the tremolo on a Stratocaster where the spring tension of a decked tremolo can be loosened enough for the trem to remain on the body, but easier on the hands. And then I realized that my 814ceDLX with low tension strings probably feel stiffer because of the adirondack bracing while the 614 with mid tension strings has spruce bracing and probably flexes a little more. I hadn't even thought to consider that before today.

Just thought I'd relay that for those interested in such things.

[rmoretti49]

Pretty interesting. Never would have thought of that.

[brencat]

Originally Posted by vindibona1

As I'm in the middle of testing Santa Cruz strings I had the opportunity to talk to Richard Hoover for almost 20 minutes today. I currently have the SC mid tensions on my Taylor 614ce and SC low tensions on my 814ceDLX.

As we discussed how the strings sounded and felt I told him that I felt very little difference in the feel between the mid and low tension strings on identically set up guitar. His reply was that while the strings have an engineered tension and there are 7 pounds total difference between the two sets, something to be aware of is the flex of the top. Some tops will have more give while some will be stiffer.

It made total sense. I can relate it to setting up the tremolo on a Stratocaster where the spring tension of a decked tremolo can be loosened enough for the trem to remain on the body, but easier on the hands. And then I realized that my 814ceDLX with low tension strings probably feel stiffer because of the adirondack bracing while the 614 with mid tension strings has spruce bracing and probably flexes a little more. I hadn't even thought to consider that before today.

Just thought I'd relay that for those interested in such things.

Great post about Mr. Hoover's thoughts on this subject. Some of the guitars I've had and sold were still quite stiff, even after a good setup. I once had a Collings CW that had TWO setups plus the Frank Sanns AO1 treatment and it still played stiff with light strings. Completely maddening. Unfortunately, I've had similar experiences with almost every Adirondack topped guitar regardless of age... UNTIL I played a Goodall. Now I own two from the Goodall TR (traditional) series and they play and feel like broken in Sitka (effortless with Light strings). You just need to find the builders that know how to voice the top properly and optimize playability. Shouldn't have to be one or the other.

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by vindibona1

It made total sense.

While it is something that sounds like it should be plausible, it probably has little basis in fact.

[vindibona1]

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

While it is something that sounds like it should be plausible, it probably has little basis in fact.

As in politics, facts often have little to do with one's opinion. It's all about perception. And playing music from a listening standpoint and playing standpoint it is 90% perception. Is it possible that sometimes issues like these are things that are so minor or perhaps unimportant that we just don't gather data to produce facts?

I've got two Taylors, a 614ce and 814ceDLX. They are both set up as identically as can be done numerically (facts). Nut height, string height. Relief. All as identical as one can make both instruments to one another. My question to Mr. Hoover was based on my perception that the mid tension strings didn't feel any stiffer or more difficult to play than the low tension strings, although the low tensions should be 7 pounds lower tension than the mids. My arthritic hands are extremely sensitive to feel, so much so that I can feel when the relief increases even the smallest amount (the sound indicates a decrease).

So what else would explain my perception of two sets of strings that *should* feel different? I never would have thought that the flexibility or stiffness of the guitar top would come into play. But it certainly is plausible.

I just wanted to put it out there to share Mr. Hoover's comment and see if anyone had any similar experiences, perhaps to validate this. For lack of technical measurement tools, all we have to go on until we do is anecdotal.

[zmf]

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

While it is something that sounds like it should be plausible, it probably has little basis in fact.

But I'm wondering if this notion about the difference in the amount of flex in tops accounting for the difference in the feel of a guitar might be more plausible than the idea that necks of guitars can be more or less stiff, and that's what accounts for the difference in feel.

I've never understood the notion of a more or less flexible neck as it relates to the stiffness of a guitar's action -- since it assumes the neck will flex when you fret a string.

While it's still hard to imagine a guitar flexing at the bridge as the top bends, I'd be willing to entertain the concept.

[zmf]

Originally Posted by vindibona1

As in politics, facts often have little to do with one's opinion. It's all about perception.

I think you're going off in the wrong direction here.

If you're talking about an underlying mechanism -- such as top flex -- it either happens or it doesn't. It's not a question of perception.

In other words, you may certainly perceive a difference, but your assumption about the cause may be wrong.

[beninma]

Pretty intriguing concept...

Playing a stratocaster vs a telecaster is a huge light bulb moment on this.. the strat feels like a huge change in string tension from the tremolo. A Strat feels so low tension it feels like it needs 11s to feel like a Tele with 9s.

[Rosewood99]

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

While it is something that sounds like it should be plausible, it probably has little basis in fact.

Might be Better if you had some facts to support your statement before posting.

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by paulzoom

Might be Better if you had some facts to support your statement before posting.

You do the math and see what conclusion you come to.

What percentage increase in a single string's tension occurs as a result of depressing that string against a fret? What is that in actual force - lbs or N? (You then know the magnitude of the change in force that is being attributed to deflection of the top.)

As average values, what is the difference in the modulus of elasticity between Sitka and red ("Adirondak") spruces? What is the variation in each value? How much, if at all, do those values overlap (i.e. what percentage of bracing material can be expected to have no difference in stiffness)?

What, if any, dimensional variation exists in the size of the Sitka vs red bracing between the two subject guitars? Are they exactly the same dimensions? Are they shaped exactly the same? (Stiffness is proportional to the cube of the hight and linearly to the width: a small change in brace height makes a big difference in "stiffness".) Stiffness also varies with how the wood is cut - its grain orientation, including quarter sawn or not, and the degree of runout.

Is there any variation in top thickness between the two subject guitars? (Again cube relationship between stiffness and thickness.) Is there any variation in the inherent stiffness of the two sitka tops? (Hint: look up the variation in properties within a single species.) What is different, construction-wise, between the Taylor 614 and 814? Can any differences contribute to the difference in feel?

Other factors that can be considered include stiffness of bridge material - variation exists from one piece of wood to the next - (The bridge is the largest brace on the top) and scale length, if it differs from one guitar to another. I'm sure there are other factors I haven't listed.

My point is that there are many variables that enter into the equation. To attempt to create a cause and effect that this bracing material produces that change in the feel of the stiffness of the strings is tenuous, at best. Even when two instruments are created to identical dimensional values, the variations in materials results in differences between the two instruments.

[vindibona1]

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

You do the math and see what conclusion you come to.

The "math" really doesn't matter one iota Charles. Nobody is ever going to select a guitar or strings based on the mathematically measured stiffness of tops or bracing. What we do know is in this case the strings were designed with a given tension in mind, hopefully manufactured to a high degree of consistency, but feel different when simultaneously sampled on two different guitars that have near identical exterior measurements and near identical setups. It was just a concept conveyed to me that sort of explained my perception of what I felt. Is my perception of similarity due to different bracing or tops? I can't say. Perhaps I'll have a better idea when I replace the low tension set on my 814 with a set of mids and then compare it with the other guitar that also has mid tension strings.

At some point the scientists and mathematicians have to realize that the human being often experiences things that cannot be easily measured, or measured at all. The thread was a call to anyone who may have experienced something similar or something for some to consider when deciding between two tensions of this specific brand of strings.

[musicman1951]

Originally Posted by vindibona1

At some point the scientists and mathematicians have to realize that the human being often experiences things that cannot be easily measured, or measured at all. The thread was a call to anyone who may have experienced something similar or something for some to consider when deciding between two tensions of this specific brand of strings.

Excellent point. I agree that it's good to have some science behind our opinions when possible, but instruments are played by musicians. My comfort level changes based partially on my perceptions of the sound. The music I produce is better when my comfort level is high.

[vindibona1]

Originally Posted by musicman1951

Excellent point. I agree that it's good to have some science behind our opinions when possible, but instruments are played by musicians. My comfort level changes based partially on my perceptions of the sound. The music I produce is better when my comfort level is high.

It's good to have science behind an opinion when you can. But the issue is so unimportant to most because on a practical level if tension is too high or too low you just throw on another set of strings... Or perhaps given the string set that exists on a guitar, you may pass on the purchase of an otherwise suitable instrument. And when measuring something to collect scientific evidence, you have to make sure you're measuring the right thing with the right tools. And the truth is, we're just trying to figure out if we like the entree from column A or the one from column B.

[rokdog49]

I got a headache from reading all this and I don't even know why I did read it.

[vindibona1]

Originally Posted by rokdog49

I got a headache from reading all this and I don't even know why I did read it.

Cause it feels so good when you stop.