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  #46  
Old 03-07-2023, 08:25 AM
unimogbert unimogbert is offline
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To continue beating this dead horse (because that's what Engineers do) -

Another experiment.

I added a Compressor and cranked the ratio up to max of 68dB.
Then I pulled the Threshold down.

The result got quieter (and distorted).
As is to be expected when a Limiter is a super-aggressive compressor.

When pulling Threshold down on a Limiter if it gets louder, you have gain being added.
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  #47  
Old 03-07-2023, 08:44 AM
jim1960 jim1960 is online now
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Originally Posted by unimogbert View Post
To continue beating this dead horse (because that's what Engineers do) -

Another experiment.

I added a Compressor and cranked the ratio up to max of 68dB.
Then I pulled the Threshold down.

The result got quieter (and distorted).
As is to be expected when a Limiter is a super-aggressive compressor.

When pulling Threshold down on a Limiter if it gets louder, you have gain being added.
I'm confused by what point you're trying to make. Is your position now that everyone using a limiter for mastering is using it incorrectly? Because as I or anyone else with actual experience using limiters will tell you, we use limiters to increase the loudness.
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  #48  
Old 03-07-2023, 10:07 AM
unimogbert unimogbert is offline
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Originally Posted by jim1960 View Post
I'm confused by what point you're trying to make. Is your position now that everyone using a limiter for mastering is using it incorrectly? Because as I or anyone else with actual experience using limiters will tell you, we use limiters to increase the loudness.
My point is that when you said Limiters increase loudness that was misleading.

Limiters ALLOW you to increase loudness. Two steps. Not one.

If your Limiter plugin or device increases loudness when you add it and pull the Threshold down , there is additional gain being added. Two steps under one label, not one.

Compressing dynamic range does NOT increase loudness (as you stated).

Is the horse dead enough now?
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  #49  
Old 03-07-2023, 11:20 AM
jim1960 jim1960 is online now
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Originally Posted by unimogbert View Post
My point is that when you said Limiters increase loudness that was misleading.

Limiters ALLOW you to increase loudness. Two steps. Not one.

If your Limiter plugin or device increases loudness when you add it and pull the Threshold down , there is additional gain being added. Two steps under one label, not one.

Compressing dynamic range does NOT increase loudness (as you stated).

Is the horse dead enough now?
Limiters have a primary purpose and I told you what that purpose is. If my explanation wasn't sufficiently articulated for you, that doesn't change the primary purpose. Likewise, your understanding, or lack thereof, of what limiters are used for doesn't change anything. You're hung up on the word "limiter" and because the word doesn't sound like the function to you, you've gone off in some direction that isn't likely to be helpful to you or anyone else. You're welcome to do so, and it's no skin off my nose that you do, but no one should be taking any advice from you on the subject of limiters.
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  #50  
Old 03-07-2023, 11:40 AM
Chipotle Chipotle is offline
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Originally Posted by jim1960 View Post
Limiters have a primary purpose and I told you what that purpose is.
In fairness, I just posed almost the same question in another thread: isn't compressing only *lowering* volume? Technically, compressing or limiting is just that, as unimogbert notes.

But none other than Bob Womack answered and essentially said, "Makeup gain is part of the process and always has been", so in the audio engineering world, compression or limiting can make things louder. It can be helpful to understand those two pieces of the process (lowering peaks, boosting overall gain) but they are part and parcel, and that's how audio engineers understand it.
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  #51  
Old 03-07-2023, 11:56 AM
unimogbert unimogbert is offline
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Originally Posted by jim1960 View Post
Limiters have a primary purpose and I told you what that purpose is. If my explanation wasn't sufficiently articulated for you, that doesn't change the primary purpose. Likewise, your understanding, or lack thereof, of what limiters are used for doesn't change anything. You're hung up on the word "limiter" and because the word doesn't sound like the function to you, you've gone off in some direction that isn't likely to be helpful to you or anyone else. You're welcome to do so, and it's no skin off my nose that you do, but no one should be taking any advice from you on the subject of limiters.
Your earlier explanations didn't make sense and still don't. You caused me a great deal of wasted time as I tried to figure it out.

I understand what Limiters are for. I had that from the beginning.

That you can't explain your tools in detail is what's caused this kerfuffle.

A Limiter apparently not only Limits but also boosts gain. It's that second part I was puzzling over as I described my results and you gave me the wrong explanation. ("reducing dynamic range makes it louder" - no, no it doesn't)

You may be a great mixer and producer but aren't a very good teacher.
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  #52  
Old 03-07-2023, 12:00 PM
jim1960 jim1960 is online now
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Originally Posted by Chipotle View Post
In fairness, I just posed almost the same question in another thread: isn't compressing only *lowering* volume? Technically, compressing or limiting is just that, as unimogbert notes.

But none other than Bob Womack answered and essentially said, "Makeup gain is part of the process and always has been", so in the audio engineering world, compression or limiting can make things louder. It can be helpful to understand those two pieces of the process (lowering peaks, boosting overall gain) but they are part and parcel, and that's how audio engineers understand it.
I've no doubt Bob and some others can explain some of the technical aspects of limiters better than I did. I don't think anything I said was incorrect but it could certainly have been less articulate than needed for full clarity. That said, the OP was asking questions and I tried to be helpful, as I generally try to be most of the time. Sometimes it doesn't pan out for either side.

The part that I think is lost, though, is that learning how to properly use these tools we have is more important than learning every aspect of their design. There are thousands of talented mixing and mastering engineers in the world, the vast majority of whom would not be able to design and build a limiter. And that's fine because that skill is not a prerequisite to being a great mix or mastering engineer. Learning how to effectively use the tools is more important than learning the nuts and bolts about how the tools works. We don't mix and master on paper. We learn through hands-on experience how to use the tools and we use those tools to make music better.
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  #53  
Old 03-07-2023, 12:31 PM
unimogbert unimogbert is offline
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I I don't think anything I said was incorrect
Actually, you did. See above post.
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  #54  
Old 03-07-2023, 02:05 PM
shufflebeat shufflebeat is offline
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…it looks to me like ( since it does not appear to have a gain control) it is automatically increasing the overall level as you pull down on the threshold fader .. as it shows in this video of the wave forms between red threshold lines (starting at about 4:00 +) as he lowers the threshold fader the overall all mix gain goes up proportionally
This is correct, but not always what happens with every VST

Quote:
Originally Posted by unimogbert View Post
I added a Compressor and cranked the ratio up to max of 68dB.
Then I pulled the Threshold down.

The result got quieter (and distorted).
As is to be expected when a Limiter is a super-aggressive compressor.

When pulling Threshold down on a Limiter if it gets louder, you have gain being added.
This is correct, but not always what happens with every VST

Now, what shall we talk about next?
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  #55  
Old 03-07-2023, 02:53 PM
jim1960 jim1960 is online now
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Originally Posted by unimogbert View Post
Actually, you did. See above post.
Compressing dynamic range in isolation does not necessarily increase loudness, but we were talking about compressing dynamic range using a limiter and that's done by lowering the threshold, and as we lower the threshold, loudness does increase.

I don't design limiters so I can only speak of them in terms of practical application. If there's some technical reason why my statement is wrong, so be it. However, in the context of what we were talking about ...limiters... what I said is how the tool functions. When I want to increase the loudness of a mix, I pull the threshold down and the mix gets louder, just as what happens at the 5:12 mark of this video...



I've never used a limiter that didn't work that way.

And now you can demand to see the manager; I've said all I need to say about this.
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  #56  
Old 03-07-2023, 03:29 PM
unimogbert unimogbert is offline
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Originally Posted by unimogbert View Post
I know exactly what a Limiter is supposed to do - in theory.

What I don't know is why moving the Threshold control in that plugin to a lower dB value increases the volume in my headset. (and several other questions)
My expectation is that the volume would go down. Limiting means not allowing volume to go up above a certain point, right?

So what mixture of functions is this plugin doing? It's not even a makeup volume - it gets louder. Why?
I was NOT talking about how to use Limiters.
The above is my question. Which you didn't answer and actually mislead me as to what the answer is.

I think you have a problem with reading what I was asking.

Can you put me on your ignore list please?
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  #57  
Old 03-07-2023, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by unimogbert View Post
I was NOT talking about how to use Limiters.
The above is my question. Which you didn't answer and actually mislead me as to what the answer is.

I think you have a problem with reading what I was asking.

Can you put me on your ignore list please?
Getting terse with people in this record forum is not really the best course of action in the longe run (as you noted earlier written communication is difficult sometimes )

For example :: As far as reading goes ......
I already gave you the answer ( Now granted I was talking what was happening with the Realimiter in the video I posted ) But in point of fact it actually answered your question as to why it was getting louder when you pulled down on the threshold control

From my post # 31
Then it looks to me like ( since it does not appear to have a gain control) it is automatically increasing the overall level as your pull down on the threshold fader .. as it shows in this video of the wave forms between red threshold lines (starting at about 4:00 +) as he lowers the threshold fader the overall all mix gain goes up proportionally
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  #58  
Old 03-07-2023, 04:18 PM
unimogbert unimogbert is offline
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Thanks Kev

That was the behavior of one example which is not in my assortment of VSTs so I didn't see it as the answer to my question.

If you (or anyone else) had said- "Limiters usually come with automatic gain some of which you control and others are just embedded" then I/we wouldn't have gone thru this swirl.
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  #59  
Old 03-08-2023, 09:29 PM
DupleMeter DupleMeter is offline
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Originally Posted by unimogbert View Post
A Limiter apparently not only Limits but also boosts gain. It's that second part I was puzzling over as I described my results and you gave me the wrong explanation. ("reducing dynamic range makes it louder" - no, no it doesn't)

That is not true.

Limiting is merely extremely high ratio compression. Period. Their function was to stop peaks. They are often still used that way (e.g. a limiter in front of a compressor on a particularly dynamic source with sharp transient peaks).

With the advent of "brickwall" limiting (effectively an infinity:1 ratio) and "lookahead" limiters (seeing the peak before it happens to make sure none ever get through), we entered an era where the limiter can effectively be an extreme loudness tool (at the expense of added THD in the signal). This is achieved by increasing the input gain into the limiter/detection circuit, which effectively reduces dynamic range while increasing apparent loudness.

This is no different than the same function in most compressors, except that a limiter can be pushed much harder & still yield a final source that doesn't exceed maximum peak (0dBFS).

So, in reality, a limiter is not boosting gain, per se, it's boosting loudness by limiting the dynamic range in an extreme way. You still can't exceed 0dBFS in digital, but you can pack the audio so tightly together that the perceived loudness increases.
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  #60  
Old 03-09-2023, 12:57 PM
unimogbert unimogbert is offline
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If reducing dynamic range increases loudness then explain why setting a compressor for a very high ratio then pulling the threshold down makes the track quieter.

A limiter is a very high ratio compressor, is it not? That's what all the YT experts assert.

If you pull the compressor down, it gets quieter.

If you pull a limiter down, it gets louder.

I'm not asking how to use it. I'm asking why it does that?

Compressor gets quieter. Limiter gets louder. Tell me what's different.

Oh you already did, input gain in the lookahead. Why would that be added if reducing dynamic range didn't make it quieter?
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