Reaper revisited after 7 years fallow - Page 3

KevWind · #31 03-03-2023, 10:07 AM

I am a bit confuse becuase I do not know what "JS:LOSER limiters" are ?

But if your using the stock Reaper Brick Wall limiter called Realimit

Then it looks to me like ( since it does not appear to have a gain control) it is automatically increasing the overall level as you pull down on the threshold fader .. as it shows in this video of the wave forms between red threshold lines (starting at about 4:00 +) as he lowers the threshold fader the overall all mix gain goes up proportionally

unimogbert · #32 03-03-2023, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KevWind

I am a bit confuse becuase I do not know what "JS:LOSER limiters" are ?

But if your using the stock Reaper Brick Wall limiter called Realimit

The JS: selection of plugins came with my Reaper 4.77. I think LOSER was a Reaper contributor as best I can tell. At least there is a user with that screen name on the Reaper forums. His PMs are blocked.

So I have a wide variety of plugins from JS: LOSER 6 of which are labelled as limiters.

Realimit is in a newer version of Reaper than what I have.

I'm not willing to risk the health of my Windows 7 system to install the new version. I've had very bad things happen when I do stuff like that. My late wife (family sysadmin) is no longer here to rescue me.

I'm starting to think I should just write off Limiters as a dead-end mystery for me. Like I did with MIDI drums back in 2015.

jim1960 · #33 03-03-2023, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KevWind

I am a bit confuse becuase I do not know what "JS:LOSER limiters" are ?

It was the Reaper stock limiter back in the mid-2000s. I'm not sure if the OP is limiting (pardon the pun) himself to a very old version of Reaper, but it sounds like he might be (and it's a bad idea if he is).

unimogbert · #34 03-03-2023, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jim1960

It was the Reaper stock limiter back in the mid-2000s. I'm not sure if the OP is limiting (pardon the pun) himself to a very old version of Reaper, but it sounds like he might be (and it's a bad idea if he is).

Ver. 4.77 is from 2015. Why is it a bad idea?

Has Reaper become more understandable and easier to use with time?
Are there actual Help files now?

Improvements in audio quality don't attract me. I'm making CDs for exactly 3 people (not including myself) who play them on boombox or car stereo.

It's what I have.

jim1960 · #35 03-03-2023, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by unimogbert

Ver. 4.77 is from 2015. Why is it a bad idea?

Has Reaper become more understandable and easier to use with time?
Are there actual Help files now?

Improvements in audio quality don't atract me. I'm making CDs for exactly 3 people (not including myself) who play them on boombox or car stereo.

It's what I have.

Because the functionality of daws has vastly improved over the years. You're learning old ways of doing things that are likely more complicated and take more time to accomplish. Your complaint about not finding helpful tutorial information is not surprising. YouTube content has increased exponentially over the years. You're not going to find as much content for your old version than the newest versions.

Your comments make it pretty clear that your prior experience has jaded you. I get that. But you seem to be letting your prior failure to grasp needed concepts/workflow/whatever get in the way of finding success moving forward. If your goal is as stated, I'm not sure why you're even going down the road you've chosen. Get a handheld Zoom or Tascam recorder, gets your songs down, export the files and hand them out. Why make yourself nuts when there's a much easier solution?

KevWind · #36 03-03-2023, 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by unimogbert

Ver. 4.77 is from 2015. Why is it a bad idea?

Has Reaper become more understandable and easier to use with time?
Are there actual Help files now?

Improvements in audio quality don't attract me. I'm making CDs for exactly 3 people (not including myself) who play them on boombox or car stereo.

It's what I have.

First just know we are not interested in trying to tell what you should or should not do. All we can do is offer suggestions , based on our experience.

Not so much a bad idea per. se. but will not be taking advantages in workflow improvements and thus very likely improvements in actual ease of use.

So likely it has improved in being more user friendly Given as that is one reason for DAW developers to bring out updates and new versions

For example The Realimit plugin looks very simple to use as per the video I posted .

And Reaper lists Windows 7 as being supported for the current 6.77 version in either 32 or 64 bit.

So I do not think there is much danger in upgrading if you so choose
And I'm not sure what you mean by "help files " But there is a downloadable Reaper User Guide ?

Lastly a newer version in not likely to bring much in the way of improved audio quality the algorithm for the DAW audio engine has likely not seen any major rewrite BUT the improvement in workflow is likely to make using it easier and more efficient

unimogbert · #37 03-03-2023, 12:27 PM

This has deviated from discussion of Limiters to why I should roll to the next Reaper.

I have a series of steps I go thru to record from mic to mixer to DR-40 to Reaper. I understand them. I see no reason to change as they are quite simple. My material is quite simple.

I watched some YT videos about Mastering and Limiters were shown. So I explored down that path. Unexpected results created a dead-end for me.

I should stop exploring and asking questions of live people. It only frustrates me and those trying to help.

unimogbert · #38 03-03-2023, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jim1960

With no dynamic range, it's all loud because the quiet bits are no longer quiet.

I'm chewing on this.

If I didn't turn up the volume for the quiet parts, and we turn down the volume for the loud parts (which reduces dynamic range) why do the quiet parts get louder?

Are they actually getting louder or is this a feature of human hearing?

Fran Guidry · #39 03-03-2023, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by unimogbert

Ver. 4.77 is from 2015. Why is it a bad idea?

Has Reaper become more understandable and easier to use with time?
Are there actual Help files now?

Improvements in audio quality don't attract me. I'm making CDs for exactly 3 people (not including myself) who play them on boombox or car stereo.

It's what I have.

I'm not saying you should upgrade but I will point out that the LOSER JS plugins are no longer part of the REAPER distribution.

Now to address your issue, is it possible that there's an automatic makeup gain switch or feature in the limiter you are using? That's what it sounds like to me, this is a feature that can usually be switched off but it's entirely possible that this limiter has makeup gain on permanently.

You mentioned that there were several JS limiters in your distribution. Perhaps one of the others will be more easily managed.

Fran

DCCougar · #40 03-03-2023, 01:12 PM

Maybe a little off topic, but I got Cubase Elements several years ago and figured out the basics of recording audio and multitracking (mostly with my synth). What is on-topic here is having to re-learn the DAW after many years of not using it (after a BIG move into the Kaniksu forest of N. Idaho). I've had to re-learn it before and know it's a pain! Also, I've resisted updating the OS in my iMac because I've heard my version of Cubase (Elements 10) would have a problem with the new OS.

Now my recording room and computer are in different rooms, and I might just download the newer Cubase Elements 12 (a mere $60) into my laptop so I can put it into the recording room and get back to real recording work! I've just been using a Tascam DR-05 for guitar recording. Apparently the newer version of Cubase Elements allows import of video, so that will be interesting....

jim1960 · #41 03-03-2023, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fran Guidry

Now to address your issue, is it possible that there's an automatic makeup gain switch or feature in the limiter you are using? That's what it sounds like to me, this is a feature that can usually be switched off but it's entirely possible that this limiter has makeup gain on permanently.

If he had make-up gain, he wouldn't hear any difference in loudness. His limiter is working as it should.

If you go to 4:55 in this video, you can see a limiter in action and the threshold adjustment being pulled down. The volume goes up as he does so. At 5:40, he starts talking about gain-match. He uses it to make a comparison to the limiter in bypass but gain match will also adjust the loudness as the threshold slider is moved.

unimogbert · #42 03-03-2023, 01:40 PM

Experiment with several of my Limiter choices.

On 4 of the 6 choices when I pull the Threshold down the volume reading on the Master track goes up into the clipping zone.

What's not clipping at 0 Threshold starts clipping at -6 setting.

So, yes the volume is going up.

But I'm using something that's supposed to prevent that! ????????

Maybe I've just found the plugins to use and not use?

jim1960 · #43 03-03-2023, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by unimogbert

Experiment with several of my Limiter choices.

On 4 of the 6 choices when I pull the Threshold down the volume reading on the Master track goes up into the clipping zone.

What's not clipping at 0 Threshold starts clipping at -6 setting.

So, yes the volume is going up.

But I'm using something that's supposed to prevent that! ????????

Maybe I've just found the plugins to use and not use?

No, just the opposite, in fact. Limiters are typically used to bring the volume of a track up to a desired level of loudness. For example, if you recorded all your tracks at about -16db, and after you finished moving sliders around and instantiating whatever plugins you decided to use, your finished mix is coming in at -12 LUFS, but you want to have a louder master (let's say -8 LUFS) for a cd release, you'd use a limiter to achieve that louder result.

At the same time, because you don't want the listener to be reaching for the volume knob on either the loud parts or the soft pars, the limiter can also reduce the dynamic range of a piece of music (that's what you're doing when you lower the threshold).

But a limiter has yet another purpose and that's to prevent what is called "clipping." If the track goes above 0dbs, the track can exhibit a distortion we call "clipping." That's why we set a number on the limiter, the "ceiling," which tells the software to not let any sound go above the set point. Years back, that number was commonly around -.2db to -.5db but in recent years it's more common to see -1db to -2db.

You're really only going to need to understand how a limiter works if you're planning on mastering your music yourself (and that's more than just adjusting volume levels). If you're just going to mix your tracks and share them, then you don't really need to fully understand how a limiter works. Just stick one on your two-bus in the last slot, choose a plugin that tames the peaks, and that should be well enough for your purposes.

unimogbert · #44 03-03-2023, 02:54 PM

I understand the part about preventing clipping. That would be a limiting function. Like the name implies. Like I expected.

The part about making things louder just doesn't comprehend. Calling it a dynamic range reducer loudermaker would give a hint about this. Nowhere have I found any discussion about this function until here.

Interesting that the loudermaker function can override the clip preventer. That's VERY unexpected.

My 7 years ago CD had too much variation in volume between tracks. On this go around I'm trying to make them more consistent. Using a thing called TT DR Offline checker on my rendered tracks. (no LUFS measure tool I could find 7 years ago) I'm getting the tracks to similar RMS readings. (I know what RMS means)

I thought I might find Limiter to be helpful which is why I explored.

Doubt I'll use it now as the completed songs will sound too quiet if I boost using the loudermaker and I don't want to work on them any more because I want to get more done before my 94 year old fan passes away.

unimogbert · #45 03-06-2023, 10:16 PM

After watching at least 7 YT videos about Limiters (while I was doing something else) -

You all tried to help but, as often happens, communications get muddled.

A Limiter limits volume. End of description per all the YT videos. (and as I expected)

A Limiter ALLOWS you (or your plugin) to raise the volume a bit more.

Setting a limit (small L) does NOT increase volume. Those are two actions, not one.

A Limiter plugin or product may, or may not, have makeup gain to add an increase in volume.

Apparently my Limiter plugins have makeup gain functions. Since I can't find any documentation for them I deduce that from their behavior. And considering documentation- it probably wouldn't even say so because "everyone knows that."

(Posted just in case someone else comes along and is confused like I was.)