Pickups vs. Microphone

[SWIED]

I recently just purchased an Alvarez AP66ESHB which has a LR Baggs StagePro EQ and Element Pick Up system in it. My reasoning for getting the pickup was so that I can do some looping stuff. However, I'm realizing that under saddle pickups aren't the best for picking up the complete noise of an acoustic. Percussion on the body of the guitar, pick sounds, etc. don't necessarily true to life. I'm thinking about returning it and just getting non-electric version of the guitar, and then buying a microphone to serve my looping needs.

However, I wanted to get y'all's take on the pro's and con's of each situation. Is it as bad as I am thinking? What are the hassles (if any) of using an external microphone instead? Are there any other considerations I should take into account?

[rllink]

You can certainly mic the one with the pickup in it. Nothing says that if it has it you gotta use it. If later on you find yourself in circumstances where you want to plug and play, you have that covered too. Just something to consider before you go returning the one you have.

[turtlejimmy]

Not of a lot of experience with acoustic pickups here, but I believe that the most accurate sound will always be a high quality mic out front in a room with good acoustics. I doubt any onboard system can match that. I've heard that for the most accurate sound in an acoustic, you need more than an under saddle pickup. Like, a small mic type pickup inside, or a couple systems inside that you can blend for better sound.

A mic out front seems like the easiest way to get accurate sound and, like the poster before me said, no need to change guitars for that. Although, the non E one may be less expensive and might even sound a little better without all the hardware of the pickup system.

Just my 2c.


Turtle

[Glennwillow]

Hi SWIED,

Welcome to the AGF. Glad you are here!

For playing through a looper, the pickup is best because the impedance and levels between guitar and looper will be properly matched. Most loopers do not have microphone preamps in them, so the use of the mic with a looper might be a problem unless you run the mic through a mic preamp first.

When it comes to recording, a microphone is almost always the better choice compared to a pickup. But as has already been noted, you can always mic your guitar whether it has a pickup or not. Some folks record with a combination of pickup and microphone and that can sound good.

If your main use of the guitar will be with a looper, I think you will get what you want from the guitar that has the pickup. Best of luck to you!

- Glenn

[BlueStarfish]

If your goal is looping with a percussive style of play then the standard prescription is a so-called soundboard transducer style of pickup. These will capture the body percussion much better than the Baggs Element in your guitar.

However most factory spec guitars don’t come with that style of pickup. So many players that want that kind of setup purchase a guitar without any pickup at all and then add a soundboard transducer of their choice on an aftermarket basis.

The one guitar brand that does come stock with a soundboard transducer style pickup is Taylor. So you could look at one of their entry level models such as a 114 or 110.

[rllink]

Throwing it into the discussion, how does a humbucker in the sound hole, like the Bags M1, compare to the piezo pickup and the mic?

[Malcolm Kindnes]

Originally Posted by rllink

Throwing it into the discussion, how does a humbucker in the sound hole, like the Bags M1, compare to the piezo pickup and the mic?

It's much less prone to feedback but sounds less like an acoustic guitar. I use one on my main gigging guitar.

[thefsb]

I was unable to get a satisfactory sound from just using a mic in my music room. I upgraded the mic to a good large condenser and the problem got worse because the problem is the sound of my room. Since I can't be bothered with the expense and work of fixing the room I returned that expensive mic and its accessories.

Then I got a Fishman Rare Earth Mic Blend. It is a hum-cancelling magnetic pickup plus a small condenser mic on a goose-neck that sits inside the guitar. It has a preamp with a mixer knob and is easy to fit in ether of my guitars when I want to record.

This might suit your purposes with the looper very well. I got mine used, mint, in box off Reverb for about $200.

For my purposes, recording, I blend its sound with a mic about 2 or 3 feet away. This gives a very natural sounding room reverb and presence while the Fishman provides consistent, uncolored bass, the articulation of an electric guitar, and nice plectrum on strings sound. I won the mic I use for this in a raffle. It is of the dynamic, handheld vocal type like the Shure SM58.

But for you, I think for use with a looper it might be better to plug a mag pickup (or something like the Mic Blend that I use) directly into the looper and then, if you want, apply electronic reverb to its output. And I think you'll find using a microphone on an acoustic guitar as input to a looper will be tricky and inconvenient. For example, you have to sit perfectly still and monitor on headphones/IEM.

[YamahaGuy]

Yamaha FG/SX3/5 models as well as Cole Clark guitars have 3-way pickups that will pickup the body taps, slaps, etc. To the OP, why not give the Baggs Voiceprint a try. I have one and it made my Ibanez AW54CE all of a sudden able to pick up body taps and sound very natural. The guitar has the factory preamp and I've swapped out the pickup with another undersaddle one, but one that is supposed to soften the attack. Anyway, before, the body bumps and taps sounded weird and didn't translate well through the PA. Now, they do. With the Voiceprint.

[Rudy4]

Originally Posted by SWIED

I recently just purchased an Alvarez AP66ESHB which has a LR Baggs StagePro EQ and Element Pick Up system in it. My reasoning for getting the pickup was so that I can do some looping stuff. However, I'm realizing that under saddle pickups aren't the best for picking up the complete noise of an acoustic. Percussion on the body of the guitar, pick sounds, etc. don't necessarily true to life. I'm thinking about returning it and just getting non-electric version of the guitar, and then buying a microphone to serve my looping needs.

However, I wanted to get y'all's take on the pro's and con's of each situation. Is it as bad as I am thinking? What are the hassles (if any) of using an external microphone instead? Are there any other considerations I should take into account?

You can purchase a looper with a microphone input, but it's almost always used to add vocal parts to your loops.

You'll find that a microphone is very problematic when looping because you can't produce clean loops that don't also contain your previously recorded sound.

You might find my "How do YOU use a looper?" topic to be informative if you are just getting into looping.

[L20A]

You never know when you will be best served by using either a mic or a pickup.
Best answer is to have both.

There are times that I like to use both at the same time but most of the time it's either one or the other.

The nice thing about a mic is that it can be used with any guitar and will sound natural.
A good old Shure SM57 is a very inexpensive mic and will serve you well.

[Guitarplayer_PR]

Originally Posted by SWIED

I recently just purchased an Alvarez AP66ESHB which has a LR Baggs StagePro EQ and Element Pick Up system in it. My reasoning for getting the pickup was so that I can do some looping stuff. However, I'm realizing that under saddle pickups aren't the best for picking up the complete noise of an acoustic. Percussion on the body of the guitar, pick sounds, etc. don't necessarily true to life. I'm thinking about returning it and just getting non-electric version of the guitar, and then buying a microphone to serve my looping needs.

However, I wanted to get y'all's take on the pro's and con's of each situation. Is it as bad as I am thinking? What are the hassles (if any) of using an external microphone instead? Are there any other considerations I should take into account?

I don't want to get on a rant here. . . but I will. Número Uno: NO system will give you 100% of the sound of an acoustic guitar. It's totally impossible, no matter how many K&K fans or from other similar systems will tell you. And it's for a very simple and logical reason: no system (UST, SBT or magnetic pickup) will reproduce the sound from the "outside," but from the "inside." In order to reproduce the outside, there's only one way: a microphone.

The thing is that microphones, even the best condensers, have several limitations. First, you need to be really still so the sound from the mic can be consistent all through a performance. And also there's the feedback problem you might find.

Advice: do not return the guitar. You can use both sources, mix them up to satisfy your musical needs. In fact, contrary to popular belief at AGF, I'm an advocate for UST's. There are very good UST's and the Element is one of them. You can mix the sound of the Element with a good mic and go home.

[Nymuso]

Originally Posted by Guitarplayer_PR

Advice: do not return the guitar. You can use both sources, mix them up to satisfy your musical needs. In fact, contrary to popular belief at AGF, I'm an advocate for UST's. There are very good UST's and the Element is one of them. You can mix the sound of the Element with a good mic and go home.

Agree 100%.

I would not use an external mic “instead,” I would use it in addition to. Depending upon your audience and your venue, you might elect not to use it at all. But keep the guitar you have and build upon it to meet your needs.

[EZYPIKINS]

There are many different pickup options out there.

Everybody has their preference.

The Stage Pro's key is in it's name. Stage

All my current acoustics have pickups for stage.

But for recording I want a good condenser mic.

If playing in a studio or music room. I want to hear the guitar. Not the electronics.

Electronics are just a way to get your volume above crowd noise, IMO.

Under saddle will work better in a band situation. As they seem to have more bite to cut through the complexity of everything going on, on stage.

This is what acoustic electronics was originally designed for. Cutting through the mix.

If you listen to professional recordings. Acoustics are recorded with a microphone. And the EQ'd around the rest of the recording.

If you heard the acoustic solo 'ed, chances are you wouldn't like the tone.

Putting a live condenser on stage is not unheard of, by any means. Watch any quality Bluegrass group.

For looping and such (by the way I'm not a fan) But I get it. You can get many different pickup options.

Just remember, You get what you pay for.

It is possible to record, using a mic with a looper, by feeding the looper from an aux send out of the mixer.

All depends on your situation, experience level, and willingness to spend money.

When I first began recording seriously. My producer friend said. Welcome to the world of spending money.

Boy was he right.

[Jim Comeaux]

I have only done two recordings. They were for my daughter that made a special request for them. In my very limited experience I first tried just the output of the TRS jack on my LL and it was terrible. I later found out that I would need a pre-amp because of the type of passive pick up that comes with this guitar. The second effort was with a single, old Digital Reference CX-1 microphone. It was considerably better and I thought that this was the answer until a friend offered me the use of his two stereo matched pair of condensers and mixer board. I mean WOW! What a difference. He helped me by showing me a better way of locating the mics in relation to the guitar. He put one pointed directly at the sound hole and the second mic at about the tenth fret, pointed at the fretboard. He spent a few minutes “balancing” the two mics, and when he got through it sounded great. No, I cannot tell you what he did nor how he did it. It remains a mystery to me and I will resist the temptation to find out just what dark side powers are needed to perform such magic.