Making the K&K sound better in a loud Martin

[guitaniac]

Originally Posted by martingitdave

Good observations. I experimented with the PUTW pickup and it was extremely microphonic. There is a braided Kevlar jacket that the PUTW goes into. My theory is that many pickup that gets elevated from the bridge plate by even the slightest amount will loose bass transfer and pickup more “air” in the sound, like a mic. My suspicion is that because K&K uses a metallic disc the low frequency vibrations are attenuated at all. Couple that with the super glue and you get a very efficient transfer of low frequency vibrations with the K&K. So, I think it’s a combination of materials surrounding the piezo and the method of attachment being equally important. I was very happy with the PUTW for a while. So much so that I considered super glue. But the feedback with that pickup was too much for me and I decided against it.

That makes sense. It never occurred to me that the #27's kevlar jacket might be rejecting some of the transfer of lows from the bridgeplate. Thanks for the thoughtful reply.

With respect to the inside of the guitar being somewhat bassier than what an external mic hears, I don't doubt that. I have a MiniFlex 2Mic system which needs some reduction in the lows and low-mids to achieve a decently balanced tone.

[guitaniac]

BTW, I have to agree that the #27 is pretty vulnerable to feedback. I'm thinking, however, that a #27 with an onboard preamp might be an excellent pickup system for recording with ToneDexter.

[martingitdave]

Originally Posted by guitaniac

BTW, I have to agree that the #27 is pretty vulnerable to feedback. I'm thinking, however, that a #27 with an onboard preamp might be an excellent pickup system for recording with ToneDexter.

For sure. PUTW is now selling their pickup with a MiSi battery free preamp, if you’re so inclined. I purchased one. It was very good, but that was a year before I bought a ToneDexter. I was using it to go straight to the PA. It sounded excellent but captures too much handling noise and feedback for my use.

[BluesKing777]

Originally Posted by martingitdave

It can be frustrating when I consider all the gadgets, amps, PA speakers, mixers, and such that I have used over the years. The truth is that I don’t think my sound today is any “better” than it was 20 years ago, excepting the ToneDexter, which is a innovation. But, the stuff is lighter in weight for sure. And, we all seem to care about that these days.

In some ways, ignorance was bliss.

Ha ha, update on the Genz for you.......ignorance isn’t bliss, ignorance is....HISS. All the older amps, that I have owned, have hiss. Long gone Fender twin the super hisser, Boogie 22 multi hisser...older mixers like Tascam cassette 4 channel, the biggest hiss! Early Zoom stuff, hissorama! So when I turned the almost 15 years old (?) Genz 60 stereo up a bit more, of course.....hiss. Can’t hear it while I sing and play but it is there when I stop. Same mic, guitar, headphone leads running to my A&H mixer......bliss of no hiss. It is the amp!


BluesKing777.

[martingitdave]

Originally Posted by BluesKing777

Ha ha, update on the Genz for you.......ignorance isn’t bliss, ignorance is....HISS. All the older amps, that I have owned, have hiss. Long gone Fender twin the super hisser, Boogie 22 multi hisser...older mixers like Tascam cassette 4 channel, the biggest hiss! Early Zoom stuff, hissorama! So when I turned the almost 15 years old (?) Genz 60 stereo up a bit more, of course.....hiss. Can’t hear it while I sing and play but it is there when I stop. Same mic, guitar, headphone leads running to my A&H mixer......bliss of no hiss. It is the amp!





BluesKing777.

That’s a great reminder! We are somewhat hissless today with our lightweight class D amplifiers. Cheers!

[gfsark]

Given my general newbie status with regards to gear, I depended on the recommendation of a single friend for the amp, on AGF for suggestions on guitars and pickups. This is what I bought a few years ago: Santa Cruz 00 Skye, KK pups, Bose T1 pre going into Bose L1-S. It seems to me that the sound is pretty darn good, if not amazingly good.

Lacking personal experience with a variety of amps/pickups/mics/etc, I don’t have much to compare to except listening to other musicians. Mostly I feel that my setup is as good or better in almost every way (excuse the lack of humility here) at least for a solo singer/guitarist. That being said, I’m intrigued by the suggestions given by the OP and I will give them a try. For example, the T-1 has a parametric equalizer which I’ve never used before, having no idea what it should be used for.

Saw and heard the Tonedexter at NAMM when they first came out. And that intrigues me a lot. Money now is going into lessons and increasing repertoire because that’s more of a limitation than the gear I’m using...for now.

[tadol]

I think the Tonedexter is a game changer, and James May is also offering a K&K style pickup, the Ultratonic, which I would very much like to try. It has a fourth transducer and is “tuned” at installation to balance it out much better according to descriptions -

But I’ve been most pleased with the Bose T1 - I’ve been using it attached to my mic stand, so I can run my guitar into one channel, mic into another ( and second mic if needed ) - lots of flexibility in adjustment / effects each individual channel, and I can run it all out to my amp, or separate out the vocals and have those go to a PA with guitar to my amp. Lots of flexibility, and very good sound. I’ve even tried out plugging my G10 wireless transmitter into the T1, and sending the signals to my amp wirelessly, which seems to work nicely, just need to power the T1 with a battery pack - more experimenting to come -

[varmonter]

i think the kk is the game changer. I sold my tonedexter.
it was interesting but sounded too processed and digital to
my ear. I know folks love this thing but it was not for me.
Let's leave it at that.
Now i am back to the felix and the pedalboard.
Compression,reverb/trem and looper . and of course the
Felix. I have a wireless pickup on order .should
be here tues wed. And the evolution continues..ha

[martingitdave]

Originally Posted by gfsark

Given my general newbie status with regards to gear, I depended on the recommendation of a single friend for the amp, on AGF for suggestions on guitars and pickups. This is what I bought a few years ago: Santa Cruz 00 Skye, KK pups, Bose T1 pre going into Bose L1-S. It seems to me that the sound is pretty darn good, if not amazingly good.



Lacking personal experience with a variety of amps/pickups/mics/etc, I don’t have much to compare to except listening to other musicians. Mostly I feel that my setup is as good or better in almost every way (excuse the lack of humility here) at least for a solo singer/guitarist. That being said, I’m intrigued by the suggestions given by the OP and I will give them a try. For example, the T-1 has a parametric equalizer which I’ve never used before, having no idea what it should be used for.



Saw and heard the Tonedexter at NAMM when they first came out. And that intrigues me a lot. Money now is going into lessons and increasing repertoire because that’s more of a limitation than the gear I’m using...for now.

It’s likely that the ToneMatch settings you’re using are doing a good bit of this already. If it ain’t broke...

[martingitdave]

Originally Posted by tadol

I think the Tonedexter is a game changer, and James May is also offering a K&K style pickup, the Ultratonic, which I would very much like to try. It has a fourth transducer and is “tuned” at installation to balance it out much better according to descriptions -



But I’ve been most pleased with the Bose T1 - I’ve been using it attached to my mic stand, so I can run my guitar into one channel, mic into another ( and second mic if needed ) - lots of flexibility in adjustment / effects each individual channel, and I can run it all out to my amp, or separate out the vocals and have those go to a PA with guitar to my amp. Lots of flexibility, and very good sound. I’ve even tried out plugging my G10 wireless transmitter into the T1, and sending the signals to my amp wirelessly, which seems to work nicely, just need to power the T1 with a battery pack - more experimenting to come -

The Bose T1 has been on my “wish list” for a while. Each time I think it’s the right move I end up going in a different direction with my PA equipment because I haven’t wanted to invest the $3000 for the whole Bose setup.

Now, I’m actually interested in the Bose T4 mixer. If I had a do-over I would probably get a T4 and then some powered speakers - either QSC, or possibly TurboSound. The new iP300 compact speakers look like an interesting option to go with the mixer.

[AndyC]

Originally Posted by varmonter

i think the kk is the game changer. I sold my tonedexter.
it was interesting but sounded too processed and digital to
my ear. I know folks love this thing but it was not for me.
Let's leave it at that.
Now i am back to the felix and the pedalboard.
Compression,reverb/trem and looper . and of course the
Felix. I have a wireless pickup on order .should
be here tues wed. And the evolution continues..ha

That was my exact experience also - I bought and sold a Tonedexter because I wasn't happy with the sound quality.

[AndyC]

Originally Posted by martingitdave

The Bose T1 has been on my “wish list” for a while. Each time I think it’s the right move I end up going in a different direction with my PA equipment because I haven’t wanted to invest the $3000 for the whole Bose setup.

Now, I’m actually interested in the Bose T4 mixer. If I had a do-over I would probably get a T4 and then some powered speakers - either QSC, or possibly TurboSound. The new iP300 compact speakers look like an interesting option to go with the mixer.

Dave - I have had a T1 and recenty upgraded to the T8S - it's a great box. The biggest advantage (in my opinion) that the new T4S and T8S have over the old T1 is that they have three Parametric EQ bands available on each channel, whereas the T1 only had one. With 3 bands of para, it is much easier to dial in the exact sound that you want.

[martingitdave]

Originally Posted by AndyC

Dave - I have had a T1 and recenty upgraded to the T8S - it's a great box. The biggest advantage (in my opinion) that the new T4S and T8S have over the old T1 is that they have three Parametric EQ bands available on each channel, whereas the T1 only had one. With 3 bands of para, it is much easier to dial in the exact sound that you want.

In keeping with this thread, those multi band parametric EQ options would be perfect! I’m holding off on any PA equipment purchases until I have a reason to. But, the new Bose systems are very attractive.

[troggg]

Yesterday I had a crack at Dave's TCPA EQ tips. EQ is my Achilles heel, but at least I came up with a compelling fingerpicking sound (I fingerpick kinda purdy, but also strum semi-aggressively at times) ... albeit I think it was the delay setting that made it interesting more than my EQ attempts! But I'll have at it again, and will also invite some guest-EQers over to see what they can come up with.

I know the tone I've been getting Collings CJ35>/TCPA>Bose L1C is already more than acceptable for most people; I'm also sure there's room for improvement. Figuring out how to get the looper going while I tweaked was indeed the way to fly (mentioned in the other thread).

btw I heard a duo this week doing the Bose thing, he on guitar, she on mandolin, each with their own T1 and bigger Bose array (not sure which one exactly). They sounded quite good. One interesting thing was that they each used the much-maligned Bose microphone mounts -- which actually look good in action onstage. I spoke to the guy, he said he'd read about the problems, but that so far he hadn't had any.

I've also heard a few folks play Felixes in the same room; those sounded good as well, couldn't pick a "winner" between them.