Built in pickups...or not?

[John Bartus]

While an on board pickup is convenient, a lot of the sound depends upon the processing circuitry one uses after the pickup. I used an outboard Fishman Aura processor for years; now I own several Martins that have the Fishman Aura technology built into them. And I get a really good amplified acoustic tone. (Aura tweaking is a necessary part of achieving a good acoustic tone, so be prepared to choose the right image for your guitar.) A sound hole plug really helps with feedback, and the phase reverse switch is your friend!

I love the Anthem for its ability to reproduce the guitar, and ToneDexter is a game changer. It's a great time to play acoustic guitars live!

[Eric_M]

Originally Posted by nickv6

... So if you can't use a mic, and you need to amplify it, you do not require a fine sounding guitar, quite the opposite in fact. For instance, I've never yet found a Maton I thought was good acoustically, but never yet found a guitar to amplify that sounds better than a Maton.
Nick

I own a Maton and don't disagree with this. Its unplugged sound is fine but not especially complex, especially for a guitar made of all solid woods. Also a little smaller-sounding than one might expect a dreadnought to be (though after two years it is opening up a bit). But yes, it sounds great plugged in and its controls are simple.

[Oldguy64]

While a mic is the best choice for reproduction of authentic acoustic tone...even the best mic will get some bleed from the other instruments in a loud band.

I like being able to walk on stage be pointed to a DI box and plugging in.
I want my most difficult task to be finding which channel I’m on in the Aviom.

Truth, and an ugly truth at that, nobody but you cares how authentic your sound is. The sound guy has an idea where you should be in the mix.
Dial in the sound you think you want, and the. The sound person will put you in the mix where they want you to be.

[stormin1155]

I'm a guitar tech with my own shop, so I install and work on a lot of different pickup systems, and talk to a lot of guitarists who perform and record. So my comments reflect that perspective....

The ideal amplification system will depend on the following:
-Rrecording or live performance? A good mic is almost always best for recording.
- Performing... solo or with a band? The more other instruments, the more of a challenge using a mic will become.
- The room... A coffee house with carpets, furniture, and other sound-absorbing materials will be a lot easier to use a mic than a loud bar or large room with mostly hard surfaces.
-Stage volume... This has a lot to do with whether or not you are playing with a band. In a band setting at even moderate stage volumes, a mic will be difficult to control. And often the improved tone nuances that you can get with a mic setup get lost in the mix anyway. I'd go with an on-board pickup system. Soundboard transducers (like K&K) or under saddle transducers (UST) tend to feedback less and are more easily controlled in high volume situations. A lot of on-board systems have anti-feedback circuits.
- The Sound guy... A good sound guy will be able to dial in the sound you want whether using a mic or pickup system. Without a good sound guy, having the ability to do your own EQ using an onboard or separate preamp will be an advantage.
- Your own preferences... Do you want something that just sounds "good" or is it important for you to have your amplified sound exactly like your unplugged sound? Usually the higher the cost of the guitar, the more fussy folks are in perfectly capturing that unplugged sound. If you're playing a $500 Yamaha, you'll probably be quite happy with a stock on-board system.


A lot of my customers like the LR Baggs systems that utilize an internal mic as well as K&K or JJB Electronics systems. I also install a lot of Fishman UST barndoor systems like the Presys 301, and people are real happy with them.

To your question whether to buy a guitar with the pickup system already installed, I would say yes. First of all, it's probably cheaper that way. There are a lot of good sounding stock pickup systems. That way you will be able to try them out to see if you like the sound and how the controls operate. The barndoor-type systems offer a lot of control and convenience.

[nickv6]

Originally Posted by Oldguy64

Truth, and an ugly truth at that, nobody but you cares how authentic your sound is. The sound guy has an idea where you should be in the mix.
Dial in the sound you think you want, and the. The sound person will put you in the mix where they want you to be.

Sadly, so true, so true

[Muddslide]

Originally Posted by Skip Ellis

My advice: get a really good guitar that sounds great and a really nice mic to make it louder. There is no pickup out there that gives a true acoustic sound...period. If you want an electric guitar, get an electric guitar; otherwise, see above advice. Just my $.02.

Agree with this. A good mic will give a truer picture of the acoustic qualities of your guitar approximately 100% of the time over any pickup system, IMO.

Originally Posted by nickv6

Maybe a bit controversial.......
I've generally found over many years that the better the guitar is acoustically, the harder it is to amplify it successfully. And the best amplified acoustic guitars I've heard have been less than average acoustically. So if you can't use a mic, and you need to amplify it, you do not require a fine sounding guitar, quite the opposite in fact.

While I wouldn't say this is always objectively true, there is definitely a great deal of truth to it. Again, IMO.

Originally Posted by Oldguy64

Truth, and an ugly truth at that, nobody but you cares how authentic your sound is.

Truth for sure. If you are playing with other people at nearly any venue, you can forget all about the magical nuances of your tone. Even moreso if you are plugged in at all.

You really must be primarily concerned with pleasing yourself and your own ears.

Most of any audience either doesn't know or care about gearhead geek stuff like tonewoods or acoustic perfection.

In a gig situation the audience is there to have a good time and hear some good music. They really aren't picking apart the delicate variables of the sound of your specific guitar...variables that are, in any case, almost completely subsumed by ambient room noise, amplification and the sound coming from any other singers or musicians you may be playing with.

Don't overthink the tech angle, just have fun and get out there and make a show!

[BluesKing777]

Both my Maton 808s (00 deep body size) sound great acoustically.

When I bought the first one a couple of years ago, I only tried it acoustically in the shop - I was interested in it because of its cedar top, great for my fingerpicking - "Take it, thanks!". (SRS808). I played it acoustically at home for a few hours and then thought to plug in to try the pickup - and while it may be a bit cynical, I really didn't expect much as there have been so much foofery about all pickups that sound this and sound that and I have a houseful that are...foofed.

And I was...stunned. Plugged direct to my mixer and headphones and with both pickup and mic on flat out ala TE, the sweepable mids swept to suit - fabulous!

The other week I bought another Maton 808 (EBG808 special order) and it sounds great acoustically too! Or I wouldn't have bought it. I am a 100% fingerpicker and this new one reminds me of my 59 LG3 but with a fabulous pickup system.

And I am hooked! I am devising selling other lazy guitars I have or trade for other 808 Matons with different woods and then a Maton Custom Shop!



EDIT: here is a quick blues track I just recorded using my Neumann KM184, acoustic only:

https://soundcloud.com/bk7-3/blue-mic777z








BluesKing777.

[Mr Bojangles]

For those folks that prefer to mic their acoustics, which mics do you recommend? I have been using a Shure SM-57 and have been less than satisfied.

[BluesBelly]

I do not care for the "QUACK" of piezo ust pickups although my Takamine Pro model does a nice job of making acceptable music/sound with its piezo and onboard EQ preamp.
I do not care for soundboard transducers as they are prone to feedback at volume although with a good DI/preamp they can sound pretty good. Most passive pickups regardless of type or manufacturer need a good DI/preamp to sound acceptable.
I'm also on board with believing the best acoustic sound comes from and external mic.
After relentless research as well as trial and error I have come to appreciate the sound, portability, And ease of installation, of an active humbucker sound hole pickup coupled an internal mic played through an external DI/preamp into an acoustic amp or even straight into the house PA. There are several makers offering differing versions of this setup. To my liking I have settled upon the following gear:
1) Fishman Rare Earth Blend (active sound hole humbucker with internal mic). I can easily move this between my instruments or it can be permantly mounted).
2) Fishman Platinum Stage DI/preamp (small, very functional, portable)
3) Marshall AS50D acoustic amp. (I also have a Fender acoustic amp that sounds good with this combo but I gravitate to the Marshall)

This topic is like many things in music, very subjective. Stormin1155 has made excellent points and gives good suddestions in his post earlier in this thread. Other folks here have also shared good info and suggestions. There really is no right, wrong, or best so each player should experiment, ask questions, and try as many options as feasible in order to find what best serves him/her.

Blues

[jp2558]

I have a Martin GPC-35E with a factory installed Fishman Aura Enhance VT pickup, and plugged straight into the PA it sounds awesome. Well, at least to my ears it does. It gives me the sound I hear in my head.

[bufflehead]

I don't think soundhole pickups get an appropriate amount of respect on this forum. I use one when playing outdoor festivals, usually matching it with my 000-15M, and get rave reviews on the tone of the guitar.

Does it sound authentically acoustic? Probably not. But it sounds happy, and that's all the audience cares about outdoors on a sunny summer day.

[insolent cur]

I would recommend taking a Cole Clark for a spin. Proprietary amplification system using an internal mic, and two different internal pick ups.

[archerscreek]

Originally Posted by BluesBelly

After relentless research as well as trial and error I have come to appreciate the sound, portability, And ease of installation, of an active humbucker sound hole pickup coupled an internal mic played through an external DI/preamp into an acoustic amp or even straight into the house PA. There are several makers offering differing versions of this setup. To my liking I have settled upon the following gear:
1) Fishman Rare Earth Blend (active sound hole humbucker with internal mic). I can easily move this between my instruments or it can be permantly mounted).
2) Fishman Platinum Stage DI/preamp (small, very functional, portable)
3) Marshall AS50D acoustic amp. (I also have a Fender acoustic amp that sounds good with this combo but I gravitate to the Marshall)

Blues

I use and love the Rare Earth Blend with the Platinum Stage as well, although I plug into the PA rather than an acoustic amp. This combination recreates the guitar's natural acoustic shimmer and character very nicely.

I disagree with some others. I've listened to what should have been nice sounding guitars sound like electrified junk when plugged in. While it's true that many have gotten used to hearing awful acoustic-electric guitars on stage, the awfulness still robs beauty away from the music. I would rather listen to William Hung of American Idol fame sing Silent Night than the awful acoustic-electric quack that is so unnecessarily prevalent out there. And also, when people do hear a beautiful acoustic guitar ringing out, they notice it and will take time out to share compliments.

[varmonter]

Originally Posted by bufflehead

I don't think soundhole pickups get an appropriate amount of respect on this forum. I use one when playing outdoor festivals, usually matching it with my 000-15M, and get rave reviews on the tone of the guitar.

Does it sound authentically acoustic? Probably not. But it sounds happy, and that's all the audience cares about outdoors on a sunny summer day.

Sounding "happy" Is the key word here.
all is good when my guitar sounds "happy".

My taylor is a custom shop model. adi over madi.
This Taylor Dred is wider bodied than normal.
acoustically it is a wonder to my ears. Its equipped
with a kk mini. plugged in it sounds great as well.
When in a band situation it gets buried in the mix.
Compleatly lost. (very unhappy)What needs to be done is to
make it more mid and treble heavy lose most of the low end
and add some compression and this pulls it out in the mix
so it can be heard amongst the clatter of other
stuff going on. To me this just ruins the lively acoustic
tone that this guitar is capable of. I might as well play an ovation
on stage for all its worth. This is why i use a magnetic soundhole
pickup. At stage volume the baggs m80 ( or my sunrise)just gives me more
of what i am looking for tone wise. More "happy" if you will.
At low listening room volume the kk still shines. But those gigs are few and far apart.
And i prefer to mic the guitar in those situations.
If your not familiar with the Fletcher Munson Curve. This is an
interesting read and kind of explains in depth what i am saying above.

https://ehomerecordingstudio.com/fletcher-munson-curve/

[Marshall]

I expect ToneDexter changes all that.

I've never bought a guitar with a pickup in it. I have a thing against piezo quack. So, I've gone on a life-long search for the perfect pickup. And there isn't such a thing. I've also cycled through all sorts of pedals; Fishaman Aura, Mama Bear, Zoom A3, Art Tube Preamp, and others. But with the advent of Tonedexter, I think it's probably possible to take the factory installed piezo in a nice guitar and shape the sound to what you hear acoustically.

Now I'm already too far down the road with a closet full of aftermarket pickups in non-amplified guitars to go out and buy a new J45 just to test my theory out. But, if I were in the market for a new guitar, I would be willing to try a factory pickup expecting the ToneDexter could cut out the majority of the objectionable quack. It'd be a fun experiment.