#31
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However, having experimented, I think that effect is minimal. It's difficult to be sure, of course, because to test the effect on a barre you need to keep your hand on the guitar neck, applying some kind of pinch pressure to stop the arm falling. I find if I want to hold the barre without any pressure from the thumb at all, then it's a conscious pulling back action, perhaps subliminally assisted by the natural way the upper arm would move back due to the weight of the raised forearm. Quote:
(Mind you, I think I agree that a sensation of pulling down on the neck a little is better than the sensation of supporting it.) Quote:
Practice is the word. You can't teach your fingers (and hands etc) to perform the right combination of actions consciously. You just have to repeat the actions over and over (testing for the minimal pressure required, as S0cks was saying), and the hands will "learn" automatically.
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"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in." - Leonard Cohen. |
#32
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THIS!!! The best thing I ever did was finally get the guitar neck elevated. It's freed my left hand. I'm no longer trying to play chords AND hold the neck.
Guitar straps always caused pain in my left shoulder. There are quite a few guitar support out there. Most are designed for classical players. I use a De Oro guitar support. It works on my right leg, The height is adjustable & keeps my guitar neck elevated. http://www.deoromusic.com/guitar-sup...rest_trio.html
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2003 Froggy Bottom H-12 Deluxe 2019 Cordoba C-12 Cedar 2016 Godin acoustic archtop 2011 Godin Jazz model archtop |
#33
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I don't have time to read the entire thread today. A good setup can help immensely.
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#34
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If I were pulling back, when I relaxed the hand the arm would move back slightly and the guitar would move forward when released. It doesn't, because the weight is hanging from the hand. The finger "tendons" are not used to press down and the bicep is not pulling back. The muscles that cup the hand are working but not really the muscles that push a finger down. Your fingers may be pressing down and your bicep may be pulling back, but this technique does not do that. You say that you don't want the weight pulling down, that you don't want it to feel heavy. That makes sense, then, that you wouldn't be doing this, because my arm does feel heavy. It has its advantages and disadvantages, but it is happening that way.
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"Militantly left-handed." Lefty Acoustics Martin 00-15M Taylor 320e Baritone Cheap Righty Classical (played upside down ala Elizabeth Cotten) Last edited by SunnyDee; 05-31-2017 at 08:27 AM. |
#35
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Therefore, if the arm is not heavy, that means your using energy to keep it light or "floating". The idea here is to relax the arm to the point that it's relaxed enough to feel heavy. Therefore you are using less energy thus less muscle tension to play. The harder part, if you haven't done it before, is switching between that heavy feeling and a floating feeling when changing chords. It's quite an odd feeling if you're not used to it, and doing it quickly is another learned skill. The "pulling down" effect is pretty minimal compared to the force of fretting the string, so it doesn't cause a problem. The "downward" force is never directly toward the floor, because the arm is attached to the elbow and then shoulder. If you let go with the fingers the arm falls in an arc shape until it's at your side (the shoulder is the fulcrum). Jamie Andreas has written quite a popular book on the subject. Here is an example of what she is talking about: Quote:
Last edited by s0cks; 05-31-2017 at 04:52 PM. |
#36
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The weight of a relaxed forearm will cause it to fall down and away from the fretboard. Even more so when the upper arm is also raised (as with the neck up approach) (I keep my elbow tucked into my side and nearly perpendicular to the floor).
I guess one could say that the amount pinch force of the hand (between the thumb and fingers) that is required to keep the weight of a relaxed arm from pulling the hand off the neck is about the force that is needed to fret a barre cleanly and thus that acts as some sort of fretting pressure guide. Even if that is plausible (not likely) you still have the neck being torqued downward. I avoid that.
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Derek Coombs Youtube -> Website -> Music -> Tabs Guitars by Mark Blanchard, Albert&Mueller, Paul Woolson, Collings, Composite Acoustics, and Derek Coombs "Reality is that which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." Woods hands pick by eye and ear
Made to one with pride and love To be that we hold so dear A voice from heavens above |
#37
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You are probably right that "the amount pinch force of the hand (between the thumb and fingers) that is required to keep the weight of a relaxed arm from pulling the hand off the neck is about the force that is needed to fret a barre cleanly." That would make sense. The issue is just that this technique requires much less effort to supply that same force. The larger muscles that let the hand cup (not the muscles that squeeze the neck between the thumb and fingers) supplies the pinch; gravity on the arm supplies the pressure on the strings. This isn't just for barres, though, all my chords are played relaxed. It has its disadvantages, I'm sure, but the advantage is less effort and possibly for some people less chance of injury.
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"Militantly left-handed." Lefty Acoustics Martin 00-15M Taylor 320e Baritone Cheap Righty Classical (played upside down ala Elizabeth Cotten) Last edited by SunnyDee; 05-31-2017 at 06:07 PM. |
#38
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The force of gravity is working against fretting pressure. Anyway, keeping enough muscle contraction of the forearm and upper arm to keep them in position is not fatiguing.
Consider some other musicians:
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Derek Coombs Youtube -> Website -> Music -> Tabs Guitars by Mark Blanchard, Albert&Mueller, Paul Woolson, Collings, Composite Acoustics, and Derek Coombs "Reality is that which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." Woods hands pick by eye and ear
Made to one with pride and love To be that we hold so dear A voice from heavens above |
#39
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That is true, but gravity is actually a very weak force. It is more than easily overpowered by the fretting force that comes from using the shoulder as the fulcrum. It's so weak that it doesn't even bend the string. I mean, it's not hard to lift your arm up, even though gravity is working against you.
Hell, try it. Form a chord and relax the entire arm, but keep the fingers firm. If I attached a large weight to my upper arm then it would undoubtedly fall off when I do this, because the force of the weight would overpower the fretting force. But our forearms are simply not that heavy. Anyway. Each to their own. What works for you, so long as it feels effortless. Personally if I don't take this approach my RSI starts giving me grief. It's a great indicator to me that I'm holding in too much tension. |
#40
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All of this advice is most likely very good and contradictory with one another. Everyone is different. Their hand shapes are different. Different size guitar neck. Different physical issues.
The most important thing is to start right now and do it every day, forming the F (e shape) or Bm (A minor) and do it every day. Strum and them pick the strings to hea how they sound. And just practice. Even for a minute. Once you can get it going find a chord progression with your chord in it. Like C, Am, F, G and start repeating that. It takes a while. It's not easy for anybody; But just like the beatnick said to the guy in the limo when asked how do you get to Carnegie Hall; practice, man, practice!! |
#41
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How can it fall away, when it is connected to the upper arm and then shoulder?
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Breedlove, Landola, a couple of electrics, and a guitar-shaped-object |
#42
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After that it is just practice.
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#43
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Do you play guitar lying down on your back?
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Derek Coombs Youtube -> Website -> Music -> Tabs Guitars by Mark Blanchard, Albert&Mueller, Paul Woolson, Collings, Composite Acoustics, and Derek Coombs "Reality is that which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." Woods hands pick by eye and ear
Made to one with pride and love To be that we hold so dear A voice from heavens above |
#44
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Nope.
My forearm is just connected to my elbow. My elbow is connected to my upper arm. My upper arm is connected to my shoulder. The shoulder is somewhat stationary in relation to my upper body. While playing, my thumb and fingers are in contact with the neck of the guitar which stabilizes things a bit at that end. If my forearm is going down, it means that my elbow is going down. The elbow cannot go down and forward, on its own. It goes down and back, unless I disconnect my upper arm from my body, or push the elbow forward on purpose. ... well the elbow and arm could go forward, if I played holding the guitar above my head. The forearm could also pivot forward if I let go of the neck completely - but I'm not suggesting that people should do that for playing barre chords.
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Breedlove, Landola, a couple of electrics, and a guitar-shaped-object |
#45
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If you hold your elbow forward away from the torso (as in the last picture) you may get some fret pressure by relaxing the upper arm. Won't be much though.
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Derek Coombs Youtube -> Website -> Music -> Tabs Guitars by Mark Blanchard, Albert&Mueller, Paul Woolson, Collings, Composite Acoustics, and Derek Coombs "Reality is that which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." Woods hands pick by eye and ear
Made to one with pride and love To be that we hold so dear A voice from heavens above |