learning the blues

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by jseth

No matter which style you are interested in learning, do yourself (and anyone who might ever hear you play) a huge favor and REALLY listen to the old guys, the progenitors of the genre... and I mean, REALLY listen. Immerse yourself in the music and the songs

Yes...

Originally Posted by jseth

and try to feel and understand what those guys were feeling when they wrote and played those songs...

Well, up to a point. There's a danger of romanticism here, of mystification.

Originally Posted by jseth

A monkey can learn some blues licks and chord patterns and regurgitate them at will, but the LAST thing the world needs is one more white guy who thinks that he's a blues player because he can play a little bit that he's copied from someone else and doesn't really feel, deeply, as his own.

But the only way you get to "feel it deeply as your own" - as with any form of music - is to copy someone else. The blues doesn't spring magically from within, from only those who have some special feeling for it. We all have a feeling for it.
OK, maybe some more than others - - but again, blues is no different from any other kind of music in that respect. And I would argue that blues actually has more universal appeal and resonance than most other forms of music: otherwise it would be hard to explain its galvanising effect on western popular music (and beyond) over the last 100 years.
It might have sprung from a specific culture (African-American, 100+ years ago), but people from vastly different cultures can appreciate and understand its message.

Admittedly there is still that residual sense among some white musicians of lack of entitlement, of lack of "authenticity" - matching the opposite sense among some black musicians that white folks "stole" "their" music. But that's to do with social forces, not musical ones. Rich folk will always steal from the poor (that's usually how the rich get rich and the poor get poor).

It's also true that it's hard to sing a lot of traditional blues lyrics with a straight face (and without embarrassment). They're too specific to the circumstances of the original musicians. (Not just the racism and oppression, but activities like riding a freight train are not something we do much of here in the UK... although having one's home swept away by floods is becoming increasingly common..... )
But the music transcends that - it's not specific to those historical/geographical circumstances. The sound of blues happened to answer a need (in western society at least) that was not being answered by any of the indigenous forms of music - not by classical, but not by folk or "parlour" music either.

Ironically, and poetically - seeing as it was created by the descendants of slaves - blues liberated the western musical imagination from the chains of European classical culture. (Nothing wrong with European classical music - only with the stuffy. hierarchical, elitist culture that ended up surrounding it, and poisoning musical education in the west.)
Blues spoke about real life in the present, to all of us (well, maybe young more than old), in a way none of those other musics did.

Originally Posted by jseth

Don't get me wrong here - the blues is a whole lot of fun to play, to learn how to solo and play the songs... In my mind, the blues are absolutely the foundation for jazz, rock, country and 95% of what has been "Popular" music for the past 8 decades or so, possibly longer... Definitely learn all you can and have fun with it, just bear in mind that what makes the genre what it is, is something far deeper than the notes and chords played...

Again, same with any form of music.
And actually, it's all produced by "the notes and chords played" anyway. How could it be anything else? The true sound of blues consists of "the notes and chords" - and how they are played - nothing else. The rest is in our imagination.
Play those "notes and chords" correctly (which I'd agree takes a lot more study than is sometimes assumed), and it will work. It will be real, it will be "authentic".

The mistake many people make with blues is to sniff "oh it's only 3 chords and 12-bars, it's easy". Yes, in one sense that's true. But it's a bit like saying "it's easy to build a human, it has a body, two arms, two legs, a head - how hard can it be?"

[srick]

Homespun is having a sale through 2.10.2015 - 50% off Happy and Artie Traum's "Easy Steps to Blues Guitar Jamming." I picked it up this morning for $17.64. There is a promo code - 7FOR50.

https://shop.platformpurple.com/prod...p=7&product=80

And as mentioned - check out Toby Walker's website and his lessons on Homespun. Honestly - Between Toby and Happy - that's all you really need! (I think there's a snarky comment waiting to be made here)

best,

Rick

[JonHBone]

i'll also say ditto in regards to toby walker. the guy plays a variety of blues styles spot on...so it really doesn't matter what bluesmen you'd like to emulate as a learning process...he's likely got you covered.

[jseth]

After re-reading my reply, I realize that I was more than a bit "over the top" with some of my comments...

Obviously, being "white" has nothing to do with playing the blues in either an authentic or pedestrian manner... both brilliance and nonsense transcend color!

I totally agree with JonPR's comments about lyrics to those old songs; as much as I LOVE the blues, I can't sing a song that talks about "when I woke up this morning, life was so hard"... because, for me? Life just hasn't been that bad or that hard, except for what I have MADE IT BE. I mean, come on; I was raised middle-upper class in Southern California, through the 50's and 60's! Yes, I have had some trying times in my 63 years, but NOTHING like the experiences of those men and women who wrote and sang so many of those old Blues tunes. I am also not a big "cocksman" and can't really support or endorse the attitudes in songs like "Little Red Rooster" or "Hoochie Koochie Man" or any of the plethora of those type tunes, so I don't perform them personally... If I can not relate to or "step inside" a song, I can't possibly hope to bring it to life or give it the power in performance that it deserves...

And that is what I mean by being "Authentic" or genuine... IF you can feel it and believe it, then you can bring that to your audience... but realize the price that is paid for playing or singing "cookie cutter" versions of these classic wonderful songs...

Bringing "Soul" or deep feeling and emotion to a performance is not really all THAT mystical or mysterious a thing. Perhaps it would be if one were trying to objectify or quantify it, but simply, if it's there, you know it and so does everyone who hears it. The converse is absolutely true, as well. THAT is what I was meaning when I made my comment about the music being so much MORE than the notes and chords played.

And all of this means nothing if all someone wants to do is learn a few blues scales and how they work when played against chord changes...

I believe that the legacy and history of the Blues is something to be celebrated and preserved and understood and FELT... honoring "those who came before" is paramount to that end.

In MY opinion, is all...

[Fuzzy125]

So how do you know when you've "got it"? Especially when you're basically a kitchen/bedroom player? When you can't help stumping your foot and screwing up your face when playing? Or that's barely scratching the surface of the blues? Really curious.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy125

So how do you know when you've "got it"? Especially when you're basically a kitchen/bedroom player? When you can't help stumping your foot and screwing up your face when playing? Or that's barely scratching the surface of the blues? Really curious.

Good question. I think it's a gradual process.
I'd say a good sign is when you can record your playing, and honestly feel it sounds as good as any average blues recording. Not the greatest, maybe; but you can feel like you'd pass.

The most important things are (a) phrasing (including control of rhythmic feel and timing), and (b) getting the bends exactly right. It's not a matter of precise pitches, IMO, but being alert to the subtleties - how quick and how far you should bend.
Like, you know when you hit that blue 3rd, somewhere between m3 and M3; you know that note is not a half-step bend (from m3), but somewhat less, and you can hear when you get it right.

I suspect there's a lot of pros who you would say have definitely "got it", but they themselves might feel they still have some way to go (they've only been doing it for a few decades so far...)
I think if you felt at any point you'd really got it... you'd probably be fooling yourself. There's always that sense of reaching for something you can't quite hit - that's kind of what the blues expresses; searching for the magic note.
Maybe that's why those guys screw their faces up..."oooh, that one was soooo close..."

[jseth]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy125

So how do you know when you've "got it"? Especially when you're basically a kitchen/bedroom player? When you can't help stumping your foot and screwing up your face when playing? Or that's barely scratching the surface of the blues? Really curious.

It is truly NOT a question of knowing you've "got it"... I have never met a player, no matter how accomplished and brilliant, who walks around thinking they've "got it"... it's just not part of the equation.

The best blues players in the world haven't "gotten there", because it isn't what playing the blues is about, not at all...

You've heard that old saw, "It's about the journey, not the destination..."?

The bigger question is, WHERE, exactly, do YOU want to go with playing the blues? Or playing any sort of music?

Just keep playing and learning and practicing and having fun doing it... and you'll be fine... AND, you will get really good!

[Fuzzy125]

Thanks to Jon and Jseth for illuminating "it"! Yes, the journey is where the fun is.

And thanks to Jon again for clarifying the blues bend. I heard conflicting explanations of what a bend should be: 1. bending to the next half step. 2. it's an inbetween note that's neither where you are nor half step up.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy125

Thanks to Jon and Jseth for illuminating "it"! Yes, the journey is where the fun is.

And thanks to Jon again for clarifying the blues bend. I heard conflicting explanations of what a bend should be: 1. bending to the next half step. 2. it's an inbetween note that's neither where you are nor half step up.

The best source for learning is blues vocals, esp (IMO) vintage ones.

I can't tell you how much I learned by transcribing every nuance of Blind Lemon Jefferson's vocal (not the guitar) on this classic:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXC1jjRCXtg
- the way he moves around between "tuned" pitches. That's how lead blues guitar is supposed to sound.
(use slowdown software to really zoom in on the details.)

Here's my other favourite masterclass:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfoDms7i1WU
- again, you can spend months digging into this, none of it will be wasted. It's not just the bends (check out 1:13 and how long he keeps gnawing away at that note); it's the phrasing, the way he pulls and pushes the timing, the use of space - acres of it sometimes - and the dynamics: tender, vicious, desperate, anguished... it's all there. You know he's hitting the spot when he moans to himself in response, or you hear a spontaneous "yeah" from the crowd; they know just what he's talking about.
(and if you think the guitar is amazing, wait for the vocal...)

[srick]

Originally Posted by JonPR

The best source for learning is blues vocals, esp (IMO) vintage ones.

I can't tell you how much I learned by transcribing every nuance of Blind Lemon Jefferson's vocal (not the guitar) on this classic:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXC1jjRCXtg
- the way he moves around between "tuned" pitches. That's how lead blues guitar is supposed to sound.
(use slowdown software to really zoom in on the details.)

Here's my other favourite masterclass:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfoDms7i1WU
- again, you can spend months digging into this, none of it will be wasted. It's not just the bends (check out 1:13 and how long he keeps gnawing away at that note); it's the phrasing, the way he pulls and pushes the timing, the use of space - acres of it sometimes - and the dynamics: tender, vicious, desperate, anguished... it's all there. You know he's hitting the spot when he moans to himself in response, or you hear a spontaneous "yeah" from the crowd; they know just what he's talking about.
(and if you think the guitar is amazing, wait for the vocal...)

Yes, yes, yes! Great point! It has always been about the vocals!

[Fuzzy125]

Dang dang dang! One revelation after another! It's in the vocals. Thanks for the links! More than that, thanks for telling me exactly what to listen for. I have two Buddy Guy CDs, but I never thought to listen to him that way.

[JonPR]

Here's another classic reference:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNj2BXW852g
Slide, of course, enables all those subtle inbetween notes without bending.

This one is good because (being based on a spiritual) is based on major pentatonic, not minor. There are still flattened 3rds in there, but quite a lot that are just bent up very slightly from the 2nd - ie below the m3. And quite a few 6ths.

IOW, as well as (in standard blues) tension between the minor pent and the chords, you can have tension between major and minor pent. Or maybe "colour" is a better term than "tension", because traditionally tension implies specific kinds of resolution, and that's not really what's happening in blues. You can let your bends gravitate towards chord tones, but you don't have to. The "pull" of the "African" scale (and its organically flexible pitches) is at least as strong as the pull of the "European" chords.

[TBman]

Originally Posted by jseth

After re-reading my reply, I realize that I was more than a bit "over the top" with some of my comments...

Obviously, being "white" has nothing to do with playing the blues in either an authentic or pedestrian manner... both brilliance and nonsense transcend color!

I totally agree with JonPR's comments about lyrics to those old songs; as much as I LOVE the blues, I can't sing a song that talks about "when I woke up this morning, life was so hard"... because, for me? Life just hasn't been that bad or that hard, except for what I have MADE IT BE. I mean, come on; I was raised middle-upper class in Southern California, through the 50's and 60's! Yes, I have had some trying times in my 63 years, but NOTHING like the experiences of those men and women who wrote and sang so many of those old Blues tunes. I am also not a big "cocksman" and can't really support or endorse the attitudes in songs like "Little Red Rooster" or "Hoochie Koochie Man" or any of the plethora of those type tunes, so I don't perform them personally... If I can not relate to or "step inside" a song, I can't possibly hope to bring it to life or give it the power in performance that it deserves...

And that is what I mean by being "Authentic" or genuine... IF you can feel it and believe it, then you can bring that to your audience... but realize the price that is paid for playing or singing "cookie cutter" versions of these classic wonderful songs...

Bringing "Soul" or deep feeling and emotion to a performance is not really all THAT mystical or mysterious a thing. Perhaps it would be if one were trying to objectify or quantify it, but simply, if it's there, you know it and so does everyone who hears it. The converse is absolutely true, as well. THAT is what I was meaning when I made my comment about the music being so much MORE than the notes and chords played.

And all of this means nothing if all someone wants to do is learn a few blues scales and how they work when played against chord changes...

I believe that the legacy and history of the Blues is something to be celebrated and preserved and understood and FELT... honoring "those who came before" is paramount to that end.

In MY opinion, is all...

Wow, I'm glad you cleared that up. It's bad enough that I can't jump, lol.

[Fuzzy125]

Thanks so much, Jon. I went back and listened to my Buddy Guy CDs. It was like hearing them for the first time. Really hearing him. I kep playing back the sane two albums on my way to work and home for the last two days. Totally absorbed by the music. Thank God I don't drive to work. I just worry about missing my subway stop.

[AdamFett007]

what i did was lern the standard 12 bar blues first. Alot of the Blues stuff you come across is based on that. then i learned the first position pentatonic blues scale. From there the rest of the petatonic scale posuitions. Then i learned about alternate tunings, open g & d. then i learned some simple sun house. Its all easy. learn blues scale. play it from the 3rd fret, look up on youtube backing track in g blues. easy bro.