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  #46  
Old 08-25-2012, 01:45 PM
mr. beaumont mr. beaumont is offline
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Even if it's an ignorant, uninformed opinion?
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  #47  
Old 08-25-2012, 02:11 PM
andyi5 andyi5 is offline
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I once bought a John Coltrane CD from a bargain bin, thinking that I should give it a listen...after all Coltrane is a jazz giant...and maybe I'd find something in it I'd like. Wrong. What I heard was a guy playing every note he knew in every "song". His command of the instrument was obvious, but what he played was musical gibberish. Every now and then Coltrane and the small combo he was playing with would seem to all wander in from the woods at the same time and actually play together somewhat...but never for long. After a few bars they would all drift away...each back into his own little world.
Sounds like you got something from his avant-garde years, mid 60's onwards. Highly unlikely that music from this free jazz period will be palatable to the untrained ear, but don't assume it's musical gibberish.

Here's Coltrane playing Cousin Mary from a few years earlier, you may find this makes more sense:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tuWjE7nAB2s
  #48  
Old 08-25-2012, 02:45 PM
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Even if it's an ignorant, uninformed opinion?
As I said in my original post on this subject, I'll get blasted for my opinion. Mr Beaumont proves my point, beautifully, that jazz is an elitist, exclusive club for "intelligent" musicians...and that if you don't "get it" then you must be some lower form of musician.
  #49  
Old 08-25-2012, 03:01 PM
mr. beaumont mr. beaumont is offline
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the only elitist in this thread is you man...delusional enough to think you can have an informed opinion on anything with five minutes experience and full of enough self importance to grace us with this opinion in a thread completely unrelated to it.

Nobody gives a hoot if you listened to jazz for five minutes and decided you didn't care for it. But tout your off base opinions in a thread about wanting to learn and play jazz? Gimmie a break. You're getting blasted all right, but not for your opinion, it's for the crass, off topic, confrontational way you shared it.
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Old 08-25-2012, 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by andyi5 View Post
Sounds like you got something from his avant-garde years, mid 60's onwards. Highly unlikely that music from this free jazz period will be palatable to the untrained ear, but don't assume it's musical gibberish.

Here's Coltrane playing Cousin Mary from a few years earlier, you may find this makes more sense:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tuWjE7nAB2s
Maybe so...and yes, the example you posted does make a lot more sense musically to me. Thx for sharing it.
  #51  
Old 08-25-2012, 03:40 PM
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the only elitist in this thread is you man...delusional enough to think you can have an informed opinion on anything with five minutes experience and full of enough self importance to grace us with this opinion in a thread completely unrelated to it.

Nobody gives a hoot if you listened to jazz for five minutes and decided you didn't care for it. But tout your off base opinions in a thread about wanting to learn and play jazz? Gimmie a break. You're getting blasted all right, but not for your opinion, it's for the crass, off topic, confrontational way you shared it.
It didn't get confrontational, or personal, until you stepped in. But that's fine...I got just what I expected. I even predicted it, didn't I?
  #52  
Old 08-25-2012, 03:49 PM
mr. beaumont mr. beaumont is offline
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Predicted it because you knew the way you presented it would get a rise. It's called trolling.
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  #53  
Old 08-25-2012, 03:51 PM
woa_horsey woa_horsey is offline
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You said..."It's only a "disorganized mess" when it's played poorly." That's what I was commenting on. My point in mentioning Coltrane was that virtuosity does not necessarily result in interesting music.
Well that was a poor choice of words on my part. I certainly wasn't referring to technique. Improvisation is nothing but quick composing. Some people do that very poorly and some do it superbly. Trane is hit and miss. If you ever heard some of the live foriegn imports of him playing with Davis in Europe during the late 50s, he was quite good. I didn't like much of anything he did thereafter myself. But there's a lot of improvisation in all musical styles. It's hard to define just what makes jazz jazz. It's not just the ability to improvise. The Raymond Scott Quintet didn't improvise at all, but they still made some of the best jazz I ever heard. Most bluegrass bands improvise their solos. Tony Rice can improvise better than most jazz cats. Who do you know that plays better bluegrass/newgrass solos that Tony whether improvising or not? Jeff Beck and Steve Morse are just two of hundreds of great rock improvisers. And you'll probably never hear a blues solo that isn't improvised from John Hurt to Buddy Guy.

If you take away improvisation, you take away the heart and soul of an awful lot of music in the world. Obviously it's not for everybody. And some of us can do it in some styles better than others. I never was very good at playing rock solos off-the-cuff. I had to work at those more.

Last edited by woa_horsey; 08-25-2012 at 03:58 PM.
  #54  
Old 08-26-2012, 07:23 AM
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It took me about 5 minutes. I've always thought of jazz as a disorganized mess posing as serious music. No doubt someone will blast me now, saying that I just don't "get it". They'd be right...I don't get it...and that's the whole problem with it. It's all about the musicians getting themselves off, and if an audience doesn't get it...well...they're just unsophisticated boobs.
IMO there's an awful lot of bebop jazz that is exactly that. Can't stand most Miles Davis, alot of Coltrane, and quite a bit of Monk. And I've listened to ALOT of Monk and Coltrane, because a co-worker played him alot in our workspace. Not saying these guys aren't musical, because they can be, and of course they are jazz giants, but at some point it's just cacophony to me. And that's not saying the music sucks or I'm not sophisticated enough to "get it", it just means what they're playing doesn't speak to me.

Like a friend of mine (also a music-aholic) once said to me "you can't like everything."
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Last edited by ruger9; 08-26-2012 at 07:29 AM.
  #55  
Old 08-26-2012, 08:37 AM
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Originally Posted by sweiss View Post
It took me about 5 minutes. I've always thought of jazz as a disorganized mess posing as serious music. No doubt someone will blast me now, saying that I just don't "get it". They'd be right...I don't get it...and that's the whole problem with it. It's all about the musicians getting themselves off, and if an audience doesn't get it...well...they're just unsophisticated boobs.
I'm quoting myself because I think I need to clarify a bit.

First...I have listened to alot more than 5 minutes of jazz. I was being facetious. Certainly not an extensive study by any means, but a fair amount.

Second...I implied by my words that I consider all jazz to be "a disorganized mess". I don't. I've heard much music that falls under the category of jazz that is melodic and beautifully done. Maybe not my cup of tea, but well done nonetheless.

Third...I stand by my original statement when it comes to the more avante-gard, off the wall stuff that I've heard. Just like the rock guitar god who plays every lick he knows in a 15 minute wank fest called a solo...some jazz simply is not listener friendly, and is indeed "a disorganized mess".

Fourth...It was never my intention to hijack this thread with my comments, but to me, threads on forums like this are much like conversations...and conversations don't always maintain a laser-like focus on the original topic. They often twist and turn, and wander down side streets into some pretty interesting territory. Sometimes you even can get a lively debate going. I don't know about anyone else...but I usually wind up learning something from those debates.
  #56  
Old 08-26-2012, 08:51 AM
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IMO people listen to different gerves of music because the road took them there ...i dont see why someone MUST like J.S.Bach ..even though he is considered the father of western music.

Last edited by Paikon; 08-26-2012 at 09:26 AM.
  #57  
Old 08-26-2012, 12:04 PM
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'Jazz' encompasses over 100 years of really cool music. Personally I prefer pre-1940 jazz when it was more of an ensemble thing. Traditional New Orleans jazz is my favorite and I've learned an awful lot by playing it. Originally jazz was not quite so harmonically complex as it is now. Pretty simple chord voicings with lots of +5 dominant chords. When big band swing came about in the 30s and 40s there was a swing (pun intended) towards less improvisation and more composed parts for the different sections of the band. As soon as I got to bop I stopped - no interest there for me.

I learned by learning the tunes - simple as that. And I learned them by jamming with other people who knew them. After a while you start to learn the language, no different from blues, rock, country or whatever. You start recognizing chord progressions and melodic patterns. Then you start learning how to improvise over chord changes. It's a never ending process and thats one of the things I love about it.
Great advice I heard once: If you want to learn to play jazz, play with a singer. You will learn the chord progressions and melodies. After that it's up to you.
Have fun.

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  #58  
Old 08-26-2012, 01:07 PM
JonPR JonPR is offline
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Originally Posted by sweiss View Post
I'm quoting myself because I think I need to clarify a bit.

First...I have listened to alot more than 5 minutes of jazz. I was being facetious.
Yes, but why?
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Originally Posted by sweiss View Post
I stand by my original statement when it comes to the more avante-gard, off the wall stuff that I've heard. Just like the rock guitar god who plays every lick he knows in a 15 minute wank fest called a solo...some jazz simply is not listener friendly, and is indeed "a disorganized mess".
You mean it sounds to you like a disorganised mess. Doesn't mean it "is".

Some classical music sounds to me like a disorganised mess. But of course I know it isn't. I know there is total organisation in there, I'm just not able to hear it, or appreciate it. (But I don't care, and wouldn't dream of posting such an opinion on a classical site.)
When it comes to Coltrane's later work, I have a similar response to yours. (Eg, I didn't get A Love Supreme at all. It sounded to me like a lot of squawking.) But I would never say it "is" a disorganised mess, because I know better. I know Coltrane was very serious about what he was doing; he wasn't pretending to be serious. I don't mind that it doesn't "speak" to me. I don't mind that it doesn't appeal to a lot of people; it's not "listener friendly". So what? It'd be a pretty dull world if all music was "listener friendly".
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Originally Posted by sweiss View Post
Fourth...It was never my intention to hijack this thread with my comments, but to me, threads on forums like this are much like conversations...and conversations don't always maintain a laser-like focus on the original topic. They often twist and turn, and wander down side streets into some pretty interesting territory. Sometimes you even can get a lively debate going. I don't know about anyone else...but I usually wind up learning something from those debates.
In a general jazz thread, OK. But it's not a lot of help to suggest - where the OP is asking about "jazz language" - that (in your opinion) a lot of that language is just gibberish.
Chinese, or Urdu, sounds like gibberish to me. But I know it isn't.
Same with any musical language you don't understand.

IMO, the problem isn't your opinion (which I share to some degree), or that you were inserting it here where it was somewhat pointless. It's that you were stating your opinion as if it was fact. You said "it is", not "sounds to me like it is". A subtle distinction, but an important one.

Even if we might agree that jazz is "elitist" (that could be a fact, not just an opinion), so what? Jazz - at least post-bebop jazz - is certainly a minority interest. A hell of a lot of music genres only have minority audiences. Doesn't mean they're bad - and doesn't mean they're good either.
And it's true that fans of such minority musics often look down on those who don't appreciate it. A lot of music fans (of all kinds of music) like to see themselves as part of an exclusive club. That attitude (and I agree it's unpleasant) is not restricted to jazz fans.
(Personally I get pissed off at classical aficionados who insist on using the word "Music" (capital M) to describe their favourite artform, with the implication that other forms of music are somehow not real "music" at all; they believe classical music is inherently superior by definition.)
  #59  
Old 08-26-2012, 01:59 PM
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I was reading, comprehending, and even agreeing with some of your post until I got to this..

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...It'd be a pretty dull world if all music was "listener friendly"....
To say my jaw dropped would be a gross understatement. Would you like to rephrase that, or am I correct in assuming that any old noise can be called music. What is music supposed to be if not user friendly?
  #60  
Old 08-26-2012, 02:13 PM
mr. beaumont mr. beaumont is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sweiss View Post
I'm quoting myself because I think I need to clarify a bit.

First...I have listened to alot more than 5 minutes of jazz. I was being facetious. Certainly not an extensive study by any means, but a fair amount.

Second...I implied by my words that I consider all jazz to be "a disorganized mess". I don't. I've heard much music that falls under the category of jazz that is melodic and beautifully done. Maybe not my cup of tea, but well done nonetheless.

Third...I stand by my original statement when it comes to the more avante-gard, off the wall stuff that I've heard. Just like the rock guitar god who plays every lick he knows in a 15 minute wank fest called a solo...some jazz simply is not listener friendly, and is indeed "a disorganized mess".

Fourth...It was never my intention to hijack this thread with my comments, but to me, threads on forums like this are much like conversations...and conversations don't always maintain a laser-like focus on the original topic. They often twist and turn, and wander down side streets into some pretty interesting territory. Sometimes you even can get a lively debate going. I don't know about anyone else...but I usually wind up learning something from those debates.
If you would have phrased your opinion like this i never would have replied.

Jazz is a huge music...I don't like all of it either, nor do I think less of folks who don't. It's misinformation that bothers me...for example, ruger said in his last post that he didn't like bebop and mentioned miles davis...miles played bebop for only a few of his fifty year career! He invented a kind of jazz that was a rebellion against bebop!

You've gotta scratch past the surface in a music so big...until you do, "i don't like it" is fine, but calling it disorganized and elitist is really off the mark...

Plus, I still don't see what the use is in ssying "i don't like jazz" in a thread about wanting to learn to play it...this is a conversation, and just like in a real conversation, an off topic remark can alter it's course.
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