The Acoustic Guitar Forum

Go Back   The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > PLAY and Write

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #16  
Old 05-29-2012, 01:20 PM
rick-slo's Avatar
rick-slo rick-slo is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: San Luis Obispo, CA
Posts: 12,718
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonPR View Post
Sorry rick, I think you need to have another listen . I slowed it down to confirm, and it's as I thought earlier. It just runs up the G minor scale from that bottom D.

d-------------------------------------------
a-------------------------------------------
f-------------------------------------------
c-----------------0-2-232323232--/7--\2------
g----------0-2-3---------------------------
d--0-1-3------------------------------------

I think you're right about the chords tho. Eg, the 3rd chord one would expect to be D major (E shape), as mc1 has it, but I thought it sounded more minor (maybe assisted by the idea the intro used natural minor and not harmonic minor).
But then I listened more closely and they seem to miss the 3rd out altogether. To my ears it sounds OK to add either the open 3rd string or the 1st fret which proves (to my satisfaction ) they're not playing either one.
Sorry Jon, definitely not even close to what you are apparently hearing. Oh, well
__________________
Derek Coombs
Website -> Music -> Tabs -> CDs and Youtube
Guitars by Mark Blanchard, Albert&Mueller, Paul Woolson, Collings, Composite Acoustics, and Derek Coombs

Last edited by rick-slo; 05-29-2012 at 01:25 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 05-29-2012, 01:28 PM
thiseas thiseas is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 183
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mc1 View Post
btw, why do you call it a Gm scale and not D phrygian?
The song is in the key of Gm.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 05-29-2012, 01:53 PM
mc1 mc1 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: nova scotia
Posts: 12,897
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by thiseas View Post
The song is in the key of Gm.
well, yea, there is that. this has been one of those days where up is down and down is up. right from the start i heard it as E phrygian (which was really D phrygian), and i can't get past that. and instead of taking my time, i'm just carelessly racing along.

thanks for your patience.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 05-29-2012, 02:14 PM
JonPR JonPR is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,776
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rick-slo View Post
Sorry Jon, definitely not even close to what you are apparently hearing. Oh, well
What I'm definitely hearing.
(I did have to fire up Transcribe and double-check each note in isolation - I never like to argue with someone as knowledgeable as yourself without some very strong ground...)
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 05-29-2012, 02:17 PM
JonPR JonPR is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,776
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mc1 View Post
well, yea, there is that. this has been one of those days where up is down and down is up. right from the start i heard it as E phrygian (which was really D phrygian)
In the sense that the intro starts and ends on D, that's understandable. (Nothing wrong with your ears!)
But once the song gets under way, G (minor) is the clear key centre. They just opened with a little riff on the dominant.
(Meaning the dominant note, btw, not a dominant chord or scale.)
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 05-29-2012, 02:21 PM
rick-slo's Avatar
rick-slo rick-slo is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: San Luis Obispo, CA
Posts: 12,718
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonPR View Post
What I'm definitely hearing.
(I did have to fire up Transcribe and double-check each note in isolation - I never like to argue with someone as knowledgeable as yourself without some very strong ground...)
That makes me wonder how useful that software is then to lead one so astray. That's kind of amusing actually. For example just try looping the first three notes until you hear the pitch
of each note, those being d, d#, and e. Start the song and keep clicking the play button right at the third note to get it to loop.
__________________
Derek Coombs
Website -> Music -> Tabs -> CDs and Youtube
Guitars by Mark Blanchard, Albert&Mueller, Paul Woolson, Collings, Composite Acoustics, and Derek Coombs

Last edited by rick-slo; 05-29-2012 at 02:31 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 05-29-2012, 02:25 PM
JonPR JonPR is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,776
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mc1 View Post
i'm sure you are correct, but i thought i could hear the A note (on the 3rd string - really a G note due to the tuning) for the Am and Dm shapes, and the G# (F#) for the E shape. back to the woodshed for me. probably just expected to hear it.
Me too. I'm still not totally sure. It obviously doesn't matter too much whether there's another note on the Am and Dm chords (it's obvious what it would be if it was there), but the difference between G and G# on the E chord is significant.
I would have expected G# too, but I don't hear it. My Transcribe software shows no peak on G# on that chord (either time), but does show a low one on G natural - even though I don't really hear that myself either.
(I'm talking shapes of course, not sounds! If you're confused, I tuned the track up a whole step to listen on the software, because that's quicker than tuning my guitar down!)
As I said, the case for G natural is its presence on the intro, as if they're only thinking of the natural minor scale - and then its chords (all minor).
But the case for G# is it would enhance the "Spanish" effect of the song. (and they should have done it on the intro too in that case, which sounds like an attempt at a classic "flamenco" flourish.)
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 05-29-2012, 02:29 PM
JonPR JonPR is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,776
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rick-slo View Post
That makes me wonder how useful that software is then to lead one so astray.
But it DOESN'T! There's really no mistaking those notes once it's slowed. (I don't understand why you can't accept it?)

(You sound a little like that guy who was convinced his digital metronome was slowing down.... Er, that guy was me, btw . Sometimes our ears play dirty tricks on us.)

Unfortunately, there's no easy way of me posting a clip of the slowed down track to prove it. Or of posting one of me playing the notes you think it is (at the right tempo) to show you it sounds different.

(I have just triple-checked it, btw)
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 05-29-2012, 02:45 PM
rick-slo's Avatar
rick-slo rick-slo is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: San Luis Obispo, CA
Posts: 12,718
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonPR View Post
But it DOESN'T! There's really no mistaking those notes once it's slowed. (I don't understand why you can't accept it?)
That's simple. It is really quite easy to hear the notes played in the piece. Your notes you think are being played are simply incorrect. It's amazing.
Anyway I tried. Over and out on this topic.
__________________
Derek Coombs
Website -> Music -> Tabs -> CDs and Youtube
Guitars by Mark Blanchard, Albert&Mueller, Paul Woolson, Collings, Composite Acoustics, and Derek Coombs
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 05-29-2012, 02:52 PM
thiseas thiseas is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 183
Default

d---------------------------------------
a---------------------------------------
f---------------------------------------
c-----------------0-2-232323--/7--\2---
g----------0-2-3------------------------
d--0-1-3--------------------------------

that is the original.

d-------------------------------------------
a-------------------------------------------
f-------------------------------------------
c-----------------0-2-32323--/7--\2-------
g-----------0-2-3---------------------------
d--0-1-4------------------------------------

this one is more fun
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 05-29-2012, 03:05 PM
JonPR JonPR is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,776
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rick-slo View Post
That's simple. It is really quite easy to hear the notes played in the piece. Your notes you think are being played are simply incorrect. It's amazing.
Anyway I tried. Over and out on this topic.

"Amazing" and "I tried", is how I feel too...

I have to say you're at a disadvantage if you're trusting your ears at normal speed. Ears can be mistaken, sometimes. If everyone agrees with you, you're on safe ground. But when you face disagreement, you need to double-check... with emotion-free technical assistance if possible .

Last edited by JonPR; 05-29-2012 at 03:11 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 05-29-2012, 03:08 PM
JonPR JonPR is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,776
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by thiseas View Post
d---------------------------------------
a---------------------------------------
f---------------------------------------
c-----------------0-2-232323--/7--\2---
g----------0-2-3------------------------
d--0-1-3--------------------------------

that is the original.

d-------------------------------------------
a-------------------------------------------
f-------------------------------------------
c-----------------0-2-32323--/7--\2-------
g-----------0-2-3---------------------------
d--0-1-4------------------------------------

this one is more fun
Yes - harmonic minor, as I was saying, has more of the flavour that I would have thought they were after. And of course it's a good way to get that "flamenco" sound any time - especially in its phrygian dominant (V) mode, as here.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 05-29-2012, 03:38 PM
thiseas thiseas is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 183
Default

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6pulJdo3zY

In case there are doubts. Those are the opening notes of the intro multiplied in audacity.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 05-29-2012, 04:44 PM
rick-slo's Avatar
rick-slo rick-slo is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: San Luis Obispo, CA
Posts: 12,718
Default

Yikes, just looked at what I actually showed in tab and it is incorrect - must have mixed things up while changing tunings. My apologies to all. It should have been
as thiseas already said

d-------------------------------------------
a-------------------------------------------
f-------------------------------------------
c-----------------0-2-2323232--/7--\2-------
g-----------0-2-3---------------------------
d--0-1-4------------------------------------

Back to your regular sponsers. Yikes!
__________________
Derek Coombs
Website -> Music -> Tabs -> CDs and Youtube
Guitars by Mark Blanchard, Albert&Mueller, Paul Woolson, Collings, Composite Acoustics, and Derek Coombs
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 05-30-2012, 11:41 AM
andyi5 andyi5 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 733
Default

Agree with Jon on this - when playing over a minor chord starting from the 5th in the scale, it creates a tension relative to the root and suggests resolution. The notes in the Gmin chord and the D7 are the same, and it creates a beautiful light and shade effect - so much of Wes Montgomery's brilliant single line playing followed this principle.
Reply With Quote
Reply

  The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > PLAY and Write

Thread Tools



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:29 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, The Acoustic Guitar Forum
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=