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  #16  
Old 02-08-2012, 09:05 AM
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Kh1967 Kh1967 is online now
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Originally Posted by David M123 View Post
Hi Kh,

Kudos to you for wanting to learn guitar in as comprehensive a way as possible. I wish I had had as strong a drive to learn theory when I was starting out!

That said, I think you may be missing part of what some people have been saying. To go with your tennis analogy - how many instructors would have told you never to play a match until you had fully mastered the fundamentals? I personally can’t imagine spending years practicing strokes, foot placement etc. before actually trying to put them to use for real. Same thing for guitar. Ultimately, it’s all about the music.

Don’t get me wrong - by all means learn all the theory you can. Just balance that with actually making some music, using what you know at the time. Not only will that be more fun, but by trying things and running up against things you don’t yet understand or have the ability to play, you can better understand what you need to study right now. Every stumbling block can become the subject of your next practice session.

In terms of working with an instructor, a couple of thoughts occur. First, not every instructor has a full schedule of students. It may be possible to set up an ad-hoc schedule with one or more teachers, with the understanding that lessons will happen when they are possible for the both of you. Second, it might be possible to set up lessons from long distance, using video conferencing from your laptop. It wouldn’t be the same as being 3 feet away from the instructor, but it might well be better than nothing. I think I have seen references to this sort of thing on some learn guitar-type web-sites. Of course you’d have to take a guitar with you. Only you know if that’s feasible with the traveling you do.

Best of luck, however you decide to proceed!

Dave
Dave....Thank you for the reply. Actually, I don't know if I am missing anything, but actually trying to sort through something.

Back to tennis ....In order to play a match, you have to have fundamentals, but not understand the history of tennis (think music theory here). Without fundamentals, one either wins or losses, but may be crimped down the line because they did not know enough of the fundamentals to work themselves back out of a 5-2 situation. Or, they did not know enough to understand their opponent moved them cross court most of the time and they got tired.

Your point is a good one - you have to play matches to learn. But, if you spend too much time playing matches or focus on them too early in development, you do not become proficient. It does not happen....That is why you see so many people picking up tennis balls outside of the fence.

Anyway, I am not trying to do battle with anyone. Just trying to nail down an understanding for myself and in this short exchange with folks, might be coming to a sort of conclusion on my own.

Lastly, your idea about an on-line instructor is a great one. I will check that out!
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  #17  
Old 02-08-2012, 11:03 AM
stanron stanron is offline
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in tennis, you still would have to learn, ground strokes, approach shots, develop stamina, touch, etc. Maybe this is not applicable in learning guitar, but it certainly was when I learned to play the piano and the sax.
Perhaps you should start by exploring classical guitar. That is a genre with precise ideas about how to sit, how to hold the instrument, how to produce good tone when you pick strings and more. Classical guitar is played on nylon strings and the repertoire is specific to the genre and you may want to play steel strings and other music. You could take the classical ideas of position and tone production etc, and use them in other genres. The theory, as in music theory, is not all guitar specific. Learning the names of notes and where they are to be found on the guitar neck is useful, the basic and moveable chord shapes and some scale patterns will help nail this information down. You will learn a lot of musical concepts by just playing music. The real buzz comes when you perform and for me the best buzz was always playing for dancing. Good luck.
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  #18  
Old 02-08-2012, 11:56 AM
slinco slinco is offline
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...............

Last edited by slinco; 08-02-2012 at 07:46 AM.
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  #19  
Old 02-08-2012, 03:37 PM
gitardude gitardude is offline
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Originally Posted by Kh1967 View Post
I think you may have taken something away that was not intended. I think I appreciate all things guitar; music, technique, construction. I have never known anyone to be really proficient at something (whatever that something is) who does not have a basic understanding of all things that make up the end result. If that end result is guitar playing, or tennis playing, I think it is all encompassing.

Put differently, I never met a good tennis player who said to me, "I only want to serve and volley." Yes, that might be the end goal, as to say...I really want to play blues, but in tennis, you still would have to learn, ground strokes, approach shots, develop stamina, touch, etc. Maybe this is not applicable in learning guitar, but it certainly was when I learned to play the piano and the sax.

I hope that makes sense - not at all trying to be confrontational. Just painting a picture of how my mind is wired. Maybe, you can say, "I just want to serve and volley" and have it be a perfect strategy for guitar playing. I don't really know.....
From my personal perspective, I'd view tennis as a competitive activity where you need to have as good or better skills than your opponent. With guitar, unless you want a show biz career, you can get by with just having fun at whatever level you like.
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  #20  
Old 02-08-2012, 04:21 PM
AtlJohn AtlJohn is offline
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Kh1967 -

Great thoughts and responses......great thread.

Something i don't believe i have seen in the thread, and which to me illustrates how flawed.....or at least inappropriate......the tennis analogy is, is.......where do you want to go with it?

In learning a competitive sport, the need to practice fundamentals and learn the basics are obviously important things, toward making you the best possible player, the strongest possible competitor. You just want to be as good as you can be, compared to all other players, right? Whether it's Varsity, JV, Grand Slam champ, touring pro, club teaching pro, or weekend hacker, you just want to be able to play as best you can, so you hone and develop your playing strengths and work to improve your weaknesses.

Is that what.......is that all.......you want, from learning guitar? Something as abstract as just wanting "to be the best player you can be"?

While i agree with others in commending your attitude toward comprehensive learning, i think we need to know - and you need to know - what you want to get out of this.

Do you want to impress girls/guys? Play in church? Do open mics? Teach guitar? Start a band? Become a Youtube sensation? Learn how to play every Dylan song? Learn how to play every scale? Get a local/regional/national/worldwide rep as an axmaster extraordinaire? Noodle on the back porch? Write your own pieces? Record? Sit on the couch and while away the time, knowing there's no place you'd rather be? Become a session player? Join me in trying out for America's Geezers Got Talent, when/if they finally get around to making that show?

What gives you the most joy and fulfillment, or what would give you the biggest sense of accomplishment, and what are some of the steps necessary to get there?

I just think you've got to have, and express, a better idea of where you want to go before you get bogged down in asking for directions.

I hope that makes sense and is of some use....and that i haven't grossly misunderstood the gist of the thread to this point.

Cheers,
-js
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  #21  
Old 02-08-2012, 04:29 PM
Geof S. Geof S. is offline
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So...I am having thoughts of just starting from scratch. What I mean is returning (or in my case, possibly visiting for the first time) to the fundamental; theory, reading music, etc and all the painful lesson plans and exercises that come with it. That is what my gut tells me to do, as does my overly analytical mind. But, is that overkill?

Can I really learn from Justin.com? Or, do I "Learn and Master Guitar"? Or, is there another program that someone feels strongly about? For me, I do know that I cannot learn "all over the place". I need a strategy, a laid out plan. I can't take from here and there.

What might you recommend? I am willing to go way back to go forward. Again, I love this **** thing called a guitar. I am in my mid-forties and feel like I have years ahead of me to enjoy the guitar. So, I want to make sure I continue to enjoy it and that is why this learning strategy is so important to me.

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  #22  
Old 02-08-2012, 04:59 PM
BrianMcG BrianMcG is offline
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KH1967,

I played college golf and was a golf professional for 10 years. I know exactly what you are talking about.

When I first started learing I learned a few chords and a couple of Jimmy Buffett songs, but that just wasn't enough for me.

I wanted to know what made a chord a chord, what notes were in it, what do those little squiggly things (notes) on those pieces of paper mean?

Because of this I started using some of the method books and learing the fretboard and learning how to read music.

Then I started reading about music theory in general.

I find I have just as much fun playing scales and doing chord pregression exercises as I do learning a new song. I liken this to hitting range balls on the range. I feel I am getting some real work done and the results will come.

I don't know if this answers any question you have but I just thought I could relate.

Its all fun.
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  #23  
Old 02-08-2012, 07:02 PM
Bob1131 Bob1131 is offline
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Originally Posted by Kh1967 View Post
Is that really possible? Yes, theory might not be as important, but what about basics like the circle of fifths, or knowing the notes on the fretboard? Are those basics (just examples) you can skip and still be proficient?
I think JonPR answered this in post #10, but I'll add that I've played with some outstanding players that didn't even know the names of some basic chords, but man could they play!! My point is that "what is right" depends on your interests and goals. If you want to play classical music solo or in an orchestra, you will be better served by learning standard notation, classic guitar techniques, and a fair amount of music theory. If you aspire to be a great jazz player, you'd better know chord theory and have very flexible fingers! If you want to be another Bob Dylan, then a handful of cowboy chords and a capo will serve you well. For the latter, theory, classic guitar technique and standard notation are not prerequisites for success.

In addition to the many different playing techniques that are prominent in various music genres, there are some differences to playing electric vs acoustic. So, "right" for acoustic might not be right for electric and visa-verse. For example, when playing electric (especially with distortion and sustain enhancing effects) you will need to master palm muting to keep free strings from sounding...on acoustic, not so much. Again, it is simply a matter of your music interests and guitar playing goals.
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  #24  
Old 02-08-2012, 07:51 PM
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Kh1967 Kh1967 is online now
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Originally Posted by BrianMcG View Post
KH1967,

I played college golf and was a golf professional for 10 years. I know exactly what you are talking about.

When I first started learing I learned a few chords and a couple of Jimmy Buffett songs, but that just wasn't enough for me.

I wanted to know what made a chord a chord, what notes were in it, what do those little squiggly things (notes) on those pieces of paper mean?

Because of this I started using some of the method books and learing the fretboard and learning how to read music.

Then I started reading about music theory in general.

I find I have just as much fun playing scales and doing chord pregression exercises as I do learning a new song. I liken this to hitting range balls on the range. I feel I am getting some real work done and the results will come.

I don't know if this answers any question you have but I just thought I could relate.

Its all fun.
Thank you....very much. I am glad that I am not the only "recovering" jock who has had this experience
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  #25  
Old 02-08-2012, 08:47 PM
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Kh1967 Kh1967 is online now
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Sounds like you're the kind of guy who will do well with a "complete" course type approach, but you just haven't found the right one yet. Like you I tried Justin and Learn And Master Guitar, and neither was a good fit for me either. I learned through trial and error that I need to jump around a lot to keep my interest high, but I have found two other "complete" courses that I think are excellent and you might want to give them a look. I picked up a copy of The Efficient Guitarist from TrueFire a while back. It's a good one.
http://truefire.com/techniques-guita...st-techniques/

And TrueFire recently came out with a big course from Frank Vignola called Modern Method. It looks excellent too, although all I've looked at are the free sample lessons on the website (it hasn't gone on sale yet and I'm cheap )
[url]http://truefire.com/techniques-guitar-lessons/modern-

Both are big courses that cover a lot of ground in a musical way. Have a look at the samples and see if they look like a good fit.

Good luck with your quest.
Thank you for the suggestions!
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  #26  
Old 02-08-2012, 09:23 PM
jimbo12 jimbo12 is offline
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Lots of good advice in this forum...

I like to take the phrase "playing" literally.
I have spent little time "working" the guitar.

I have copied leads from my favorites and developed a "dictionary" to refer to during a jam.

Once you figure out how to fit (transpose) them into the key of a jam, you
can have some fun.

I have been doing this for 36 years.

Keep in mind that I also believe that your sound will be at least 51% of the equation.

Imagine if Jimmy Page decided to do the "Stairway" lead with a banjo!
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  #27  
Old 02-09-2012, 04:52 AM
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Originally Posted by jimbo12 View Post
Lots of good advice in this forum...

I like to take the phrase "playing" literally.
I have spent little time "working" the guitar.
Exactly right. When people talk about putting in the hours of "hard work", it's an unfortunate phrase. If it feels like hard work, you're doing it wrong. It's "play", always. Doesn't mean it isn't serious, absorbing or challenging. But it's not a chore. It should be taken as seriously as children take their play (but no more seriously).
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimbo12 View Post
Keep in mind that I also believe that your sound will be at least 51% of the equation.

Imagine if Jimmy Page decided to do the "Stairway" lead with a banjo!
I'd love to hear him do that!
The intro would sound just fine on banjo, but you'd probably need to speed it up substantially...
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  #28  
Old 02-09-2012, 05:55 AM
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STH on the banjo, solo starts a little after the 2:00 mark:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htH2thi_1I4
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  #29  
Old 02-09-2012, 07:06 AM
JonPR JonPR is offline
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STH on the banjo, solo starts a little after the 2:00 mark:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htH2thi_1I4
I KNEW someone had to have done it on youtube...

This should be a new scientific theory, like those ones about quantum theory and multiple parallel universes:
Anything that can happen, will happen (ie in one of those other universes)

Any human activity that can be possibly imagined, someone has already done it on youtube.
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  #30  
Old 02-09-2012, 07:30 AM
WSMReloaded WSMReloaded is offline
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Kh1967, thanks for posting. I am 41, and also using L&M and Justin. I am also a believer in "fundamentals" and often when learning something new get bogged down in how to go about it the "right way". In fact I often get so bogged down and discouraged in what is right that I never see the forest for the trees and give up. What I am trying to remember, as I am slowly learning guitar (and did I mention piano at the same time ?) is that hopefully I have a long time to figure out what makes up everything I need, and want, to know and a long time to do it. That as long as I am making some progress I can fill in the blanks as they become apparant.
For me, my end goal is to know the instrument, what makes up the sounds, how they fit together, and to sit on my back porch feeling music and accomplishment. If it takes 5 or 55 years to get there that works for me, the fact that there will always be more to learn will help keep my motivation strong.
Best of luck in your journey!
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