Performing with a music stand?

[slewis]

I sure don't mean to pick on people who actually need to use them (and if my choice were to use one and gig, or not use one and not be able to gig, well, that's a no-brainer). I think my "issue" here is musicians who use them for nothing more than a stand for a setlist, especially (I've seen it!) leafing through a binder of lyrics after finishing a song while they talk amongst themselves on what song to play next. In my mind, your professionalism factor goes up by about ten if you can avoid using them. I suppose it's more often seen in people who are starting out, and again I have no problem with that when they have to be used. I've just seen too many people use them who seem like they really don't have to, as described above, and if they could avoid it, it sure looks a ton better, IMO, from the audience's perspective! Or maybe it's just me... Thoughts?

[815C]

For me it depends on the gig. I got to sit in with the Nashville Symphony a couple times and I had a stand - everybody did. If I'm playing a jazz gig where I'm sitting down, I don't feel bad using a stand.

But if I'm playing a rock, blues, or country gig I won't use one. If I need charts, I will write them out with a Sharpie in font large enough that I can read it while its laying on the floor hidden behind the floor wedge monitor. I'll stand in such a way that it looks like I'm just looking at my fretting hand when I'm looking at the chart.

[Rick Shepherd]

My professional choice is not to use one.

[acousticologist]

i do both cover gigs and original gigs.

for my original shows where i might pepper a couple of covers in, there wont be a stand.

for my cover work, i get booked 2-3 times per week, and have wildly different audiences to cater to. some like the old stuff. some like the new stuff. some like the favourites.

so for these gigs i like to have a stand with a book. theyre normally 3 hours long. i'm usually so busy teaching, gigging or recording - i don't always have time to practice the song enough to remember all the lyrics...

i used to feel bad.... then i saw this..

http://youtu.be/Z7b37l_B4vI


If he can use one - and sell a million records, and the audience doesn't care - well shmeh.. i'll do what i gotta do

[mr. beaumont]

Depends on the kind of music and the type of gig.

But even when a music stand is present, there's a professional way to use it and a hack way...pretty much goes that way for everything...

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by acousticologist

i used to feel bad.... then i saw this..

http://youtu.be/Z7b37l_B4vI


If he can use one - and sell a million records, and the audience doesn't care - well shmeh.. i'll do what i gotta do

Yes. While I tend to agree that music stands should be avoided if possible - because they set up a barrier between the artist and the audience - they can also give the impression of an intimate recital, flattering the audience. In the Bryan Adams video, it makes it look like he cares enough to take his music seriously, and get it right in every detail - in the same way a string quartet would. It gives the (false?) impression that the music is really quite difficult: "look, the musician needs his music, so there's something important and significant going on here; and hey, we're intelligent people, we can appreciate that!"

Naturally, this is going to work better for music which (a) clearly is quite difficult and complicated, and/or (b) is delivered to a seated audience, ideally in fairly intimate surroundings. If it's rock'n'roll for a dancing crowd, then music stands are really uncool. This music is supposed to be their life! They're singing about their feelings (and ours)! Do they need to consult charts to cook breakfast or walk down the street?? Have the drugs destroyed their brains so they can't remember the chords??
Same with some forms of jazz. Of course big band jazz is based on written arrangements, and many bands have frequent deps who can't be expected to know stuff by heart. We expect to see ranks of music stands, just as we do at a symphony concert. But small group jazz is a conversation between the musicians, where spontaneity and intercommunication is paramount. Music stands rob the performance of energy.

However, I do think it's true that there is no kind of music performance in which the entertainment value, and the energy levels, would not be enhanced by the removal of music stands. The more we expect to see music stands at a gig, the more impressed we are when a band does without them. It's like they care more about communicating with us, as people, and less about the dry details of the dots on the page. It's like watching someone make a speech - if they speak without notes, that has far more impact than if they're squinting at a piece of paper or an autocue all the time.

As a player, I use a music stand in similar circumstances to other posters - when playing songs I've not yet played often enough to have memorized. But typically I find if I make myself do without the stand, I can actually remember how most stuff goes, and it makes for a much better live experience. IOW, it can become a crutch. (Even if I forget details, hey it's no big deal; in the kind of music I'm talking about - rock and soul covers - improvisation will get me through. I know the style and genre well enough to play the right sort of thing.)

[71jasper]

Well, I don't use one, I just have my song list on the floor where I can glance at it. But if you're going to use one, please use the black, professional looking ones. The folding chrome rickety jobs just look goofy on stage.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by 71jasper

Well, I don't use one, I just have my song list on the floor where I can glance at it.

Oh yeah, the song list on the floor! That's OK unless, like us, your lead singer is short-sighted and the whole thing is in fairly small print on one A4 sheet. So he's always muttering "what's next?" and crouching down to peer at it, or picking it up to look more closely. Even a music stand would be better than that.
The singer in a previous band I was in had a neater idea. She had small strips of paper, one for each song, just with essential cues on each one (not entire lyrics). No more than an inch or 2 wide, maybe 4 or 5 inches long. She'd tape them to the mic stand. This was much less obtrusive than a music stand, and close to her at all times, so the writing (and hence the pieces of paper) could be quite small.

The traditional method for folk guitarists and singer-songwriters, of course, is the taped list on the top of the guitar. Nobody minds that. It's even a nice traditional touch! Like the pint of beer under the stool, and the bad jokes when tuning up...

[slewis]

"It's like watching someone make a speech - if they speak without notes, that has far more impact than if they're squinting at a piece of paper or an autocue all the time."

Well stated, JonPR!

That being said, yes, I certainly use a small inobtrusive setlist, and occasionally a small piece of paper with some lyric cues on it for new songs that aren't yet ingrained. But I'm just doing covers and standards, too...

Good examples presented here of some times when stands are more, and less, acceptable. No fast rules, I suppose. And I've heard from laypeople who both think it looks tacky as heck and others who don't give a rip....

[DaveG]

I used to think music stands were unprofessional and cheating, but there is a guy around here, who I run into at open mics and the like on a regular basis, that always uses one. He is so into his music (both covers and originals), well rehearsed and entertaining that he is usually the biggest hit of the night. It made me realize that whether you use a stand or not doesn't matter to the audiance. If you are entertaining that's all that counts.

[hansentj]

I don't have a big problem with them, but that's probably because I use one. I can see that the appearance of professionalism declines with the presence of a music stand but I'd rather have a musician use one and be on his game than try to appear pro while forgetting changes and lyrics. Michael Stipe uses a music stand for all his lyrics. If the lead singer of REM can get away with it, I think anyone can.

As for the flipping through a binder thing....I do that, pretty much every gig. I have somewhere around 3 gigs a week lasting at least 3 hours. I'm not putting together an organized set list for gigs of that length every time I have one. I tailor what I play according to feel of each gig. If people are listening and paying attention, I play certain songs. If I'm acoustic wallpaper, I play certain songs. If it's quiet I play certain songs. If it's loud I play certain songs. A setlist wouldn't help at all.

I have a songlist hovering around 500 songs and I just can't keep that many changes and lyrics in my head. I admire those who can, but I'm not among their ranks. And frankly, I hope my skill demonstrates my professionalism, not the presence, or lack thereof, of a music stand.

[eribo]

When I was a younger musician, I used to think that music stands were un-professional and the musician did not know their music.
But if you think about it, watch most professional acts out there, they have a tele-prompter of some sort scolling the lyrics. Even for bands where the lead singer is moving, I have seen the tele-prompters look like monitors on the floor, and there may be four or five of them strategically positioned.
Since I only play one or two gigs a month (by choice), I don't have the kinda money to invest in a tele-prompter and someone to run it. So I use a music stand.
As I have gotten older, I have two kids, a 50 hour a week job, etc, I don't have the kinda time needed to memorize every song.
I learn 2 to 3 new cover songs a week. Then I write out a one page chord/lyric sheet for each song, and add them to my huge notebook.

All of that taken into consideration, I use a sturdy, black music stand. I have never had anyone say I looked unprofessional, and I feel better being able to deliver an entire night of music without forgetting any words or chords. I think the audience appreciates that. I know I would.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by eribo

When I was a younger musician, I used to think that music stands were un-professional and the musician did not know their music.
But if you think about it, watch most professional acts out there, they have a tele-prompter of some sort scolling the lyrics. Even for bands where the lead singer is moving, I have seen the tele-prompters look like monitors on the floor, and there may be four or five of them strategically positioned.

Yes, I always find this slightly depressing myself. It looks as if they are hiding them (from general audience view) as if they're embarrassed to need them. It's the roving cameras that catch them out.
But then, these tend not to be your average rock'n'roll bar band. Their stage shows are often complicated with backing musicians, singers, maybe dancers - and maybe the band themselves have a few rehearsed moves, or maybe synchronized videos. There's a lot more stuff to memorize than there used to be in the "good old days" (whenever they were ). I don't blame them.
I did find it sad when I saw the Stones using them, when they were playing tunes they must have played 1000s of times before - but maybe it was just set lists. And it's fine if they're well enough rehearsed (otherwise) to make the use of prompters subliminal - just there for the occasional reminder.

Originally Posted by eribo

Since I only play one or two gigs a month (by choice), I don't have the kinda money to invest in a tele-prompter and someone to run it. So I use a music stand.
As I have gotten older, I have two kids, a 50 hour a week job, etc, I don't have the kinda time needed to memorize every song.
I learn 2 to 3 new cover songs a week. Then I write out a one page chord/lyric sheet for each song, and add them to my huge notebook.

All of that taken into consideration, I use a sturdy, black music stand. I have never had anyone say I looked unprofessional, and I feel better being able to deliver an entire night of music without forgetting any words or chords. I think the audience appreciates that. I know I would.

That all makes sense. I don't use a stand myself, but then I differ from you as follows:
I play in a band, just guitar, only a few backing vocals - no lead vocal, no solo gigs;
We don't add 2 or 3 songs a week to our list; we add maybe one or two a year!
No kids, no 50-hour a week job (not that I spend any time learning new songs, not for the band anyhow...)

Even so, our bassist, drummer and keyboard player use stands and folders. Their excuse: they play in a few different bands, so would find it easy to lose track. (Although when we get a dep drummer, they never use music; our guy is just a little anal...) I used to play in more bands myself - and did use a stand when I was a bassist in a soul covers group. I only needed it for a few of the tunes, but of course even if you only need it for one song, it's got to be there all the time. (And it's more important for a bassist to be note perfect: a guitarist can stop playing now and then if they forget a chord, without disturbing the groove; a bassist can't.)

Of course, it all comes down to how well you know your material. If you're always adding new covers to your list, you need to remember a lot of lyrics, and/or have a huge file of songs covering any eventuality - you can't memorize that lot totally. Better to have a stand, and be able to relax and deliver the goods without worrying about what the next verse is. (Showmanship is not served by screwing a song up.)

Our singer doesn't use a stand, and has - amazingly - memorized lyrics for over 40 songs (probably more), but then we barely change our list. (That's one reason we DON'T add songs very often - he'd need to memorize them.)
He does sometimes forget lyrics, occasionally giving me a blank look - oddly, I seem to remember them better than him (just from hearing him sing them for so many years). But nobody much cares if a verse or two goes missing from "Desolation Row", or lyrics from one verse end up in another . Sometimes however, he's reduced to mumbling something, hoping no one will notice those aren't actual words coming out of his mouth. I guess a music stand is preferable to too much of that...

[PorkPieGuy]

Never used one when I was in a rock band. When I was doing the singer/songwriter thing, I used one just because I would have to sing and play for 2-3 hour sets at a time and I usually didn't repeat songs.

Playing drums at church I have one, but I've probably learned a catalog of about 50-60 songs (at least) in the past 1.5 years and I have notes about what to play on each song. I've got about 90% of it memorized but we learn/write a new song every week or two, so i'm always having to learn. Also, I have a friend that does wedding receptions with a jazz band (he playes bass). His book is huge but they all sight-read music and play some pretty long gigs.

I think that they have their place. It just depends on the situation/setting.

[mike o]

OK. This is pet peeve for me. The only thing I hate more than seeing music stands is folks reading vocals from them. Same could go for cord charts. It would be OK if you're playing in a pick up gig but never in what is your main show band. I was in one band that the lead singer read every song. They should have named the band "Page Reader". If a song is important enough to add to your set list, know the song. It's not that hard. Watch the you tube videos. Even videos posted here. Folks have gotten creative with how to hide the fact they are reading pages. The eye's don't lie though. Think about it, you're in the audience. Do you want the singer focused the audience or reading from a book? The physical barrier is bad enough. The emotional connection with your audience is critical.