Transpose from minor key to major key ?

[lw216316]

" ....take a sad song and make it better....."
from ' Hey Jude ' by the Beatles.

It is easy to transpose a song from one major key to another major key
and
it is easy to transpose a song from one minor key to another minor key

but I'm wondering ....
can a song written in a MINOR key be transposed to a MAJOR key ???

If so,.....how do you do it ?

Consider this example- ( I forgot the spaces get compressed, so the chords are bunched together - you know what I mean)
the song Greensleeves

Am C
Alas my love,
G Em
you do me wrong,
Am E
to cast me off so discourteously,
Am C G Em
for i have loved you so long,
Am E7 Am
delighting in your company.

chorus:
C G Em
greensleeves was all my joy,
Am E
greensleeves was my delight,
C G Em
greensleeves was my heart of gold,
Am E7 Am
and who but my lady greensleeves.


So this song is in the key of A minor ...right ?
I know that A minor is the 'relative' minor of the key of C
and I know
that a major and its relative minor share the same common number of sharps and flats ( in this case - no sharps or flats in the scale).

So - to 'transpose' from the key of A minor would it be a simple matter of
just changing that one chord from a minor chord to a major chord ?
- in this case the first melody note in the song is an 'A' note

If I add an 'A' note to a C major chord I would get a C6 -
and that chord substitution seems to work
- to replace all ' A minor ' chords with C6.

Is that all there is too it.....???

- Larry

[Doug Young]

A C6 and an Am7 are basically the same chord, the same notes with a different bass, so simply changing that chord isn't likely to make the tune sound major - maybe a little, but probably not enough to notice. To change a tune from minor to major, what I'd expect someone to do is to make the core minor chords (Am in this case) into major, or A Major. You'll also have to change the appropriate melody notes, like all C's (the minor 3rd, here), to C#s (the major 3rd). You'll probably need to change other notes and chords, as well, such as the C Major, which isn't a chord that belongs in the key of A Major, nor does the G, or the Em...

People do do this sort of thing sometimes, changing a well known tune from one mode to another, but it will definitely change the way it sounds. You might not recognize the result as Greensleeves after you do all this, for example.

[oldplayer2]

minor keys sound minor and major keys sound....major. It's the neighbors and the sequencing of the chords i.e. the 234567 chords
The name of the chord isn't what gives a tune its feel- its the scale.
A m7 is a 6th 3 steps up. It is also a maj9 3 steps down.
It doesn't really matter what you name the chord, Greensleeves will always sound minor. Doug is right about inversions making a song sound different, but that's really not a minor/major matter. There's a lot of hair splitting. Just play (a lot) and enjoy it.
op2

[lw216316]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

People do do this sort of thing sometimes, changing a well known tune from one mode to another, but it will definitely change the way it sounds. You might not recognize the result as Greensleeves after you do all this, for example.

Yes, my goal would be to change 'the way it sounds'
from a minor sound to a major sound.

I'm wondering what the 'formula' is ?
What is the music theory behind doing it ?

I have a simple chart I made many years ago I use to transpose
from major to major.

So I'm wondering ...what the rules are for doing so from minor to major.

In the Greensleeves example - what major key would it transpose to ?
Would it be A major ?

Would I then treat the Am version as if it were C major
and then just do it as a simple C major to A major transposition ?

I'm thinking maybe the answer is to FIRST transpose from the minor to its associated relative MAJOR
(and I'm drawing a blank on how that would be done).
then of course you could transpose from major to major easily if you wanted it in a different major key.

- Larry

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by lw216316

I'm wondering what the 'formula' is ?

The most basic formula would be map all the notes in the minor scale to the corresponding notes in the major scale. 1st note of the scale goes to the 1st note, 2nd to the 2nd, etc. So, to go from Am to Amaj, you'd change:

A->A
B->B
C -> C#
D->D
E-> E
F -> F#
G->G#

If you want to move the tune to C, that's fine, but it doesn't change the basic approach. You have to think terms of scale degrees when you change keys, and in this case, you're changing mode, from minor to major at the same time. So, to change an Am melody to C major, you change all the notes as:

A->C
B->D
C->E
D->F
E->G
F->A
G->B

Even tho those look like the same notes, you have changed the intervals involved from minor to major.

Now you have to harmonize the melody - choose the chords. Since you've effectively changed the melody to something completely different, how you do that is really up to you. But if you move to A Major, the starting point would be the chords in AMajor: A, D and E. In C, they'd be C,F,and G. But remember, if you've moved to C, your melody now starts on C, not A.

How well this works really depends on the song and what you're trying to achieve. I don't think moving greensleeves to major works very well, myself, which doesn't mean you can't come up with something cool. One example that works really nicely is Joy to The World, moved from major to minor, the opposite direction. The melody - basically a scale moving down - is so obvious that you can make it minor and people will still recognize it, and just find it unusual - except that lots of people have already done that one :-)

it sounds like you might want to consult some basic books on scale and chord theory to make this all a little clearer.

[lw216316]

Thanks Doug,
I'll study what you said.

It looks like the idea is to change the minor key to the SAME major key
(not the relative major as I was guessing)
..in this example....change from A minor to A major-
and transpose the melody notes as you listed-
then to harmonize the melody.

I had no particular reason for choosing Greensleeves as an example-
It was the first song that came to mind that was in a minor key.

- Larry

[picker304]

Hello
The best way to do this is to reverse the relative. ie try using key of Eb to get a different arrangement. You will have to play with it but you'll come up with very interesting passages. Hopes this helps

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by lw216316

...but I'm wondering ....
can a song written in a MINOR key be transposed to a MAJOR key ???

Hi Larry…

Sure you can, and to add to some things Doug said...

Do you plan to change from Am to A major? If so, they involve two different keys. A minor shares the key of C major scale (no flats or sharps), and A major has 3 sharps (F#, C#, & G#).

Or if you are thinking you could switch from A minor to C major (to keep the shared scale intact), then you are going to have to move/shift/transpose the melody and substitute totally different chords in the progression.

But both are possible and could work, but it wouldn't sound like Greensleeves anymore.

If you really want to up the ante then put it into an alternate tuning. I have an experimental - and far too lengthy - version (What Child Is This has the same tune and chords) in CGCGCD where I experimented with alternating the V chord between major and minor.

It is heRe - CLiCK

[Doug Young]

This is an interesting topic. I love that someone wants to talk about approaches to arranging and so on! I thought it'd be easier to clarify what I was talking about - far from the only possible approach, of course - with a demo rather than trying to type. Here's a very ragged explanation and demo of what I was trying to say:

Major/Minor conversion demo

[lw216316]

Originally Posted by picker304

Hello
The best way to do this is to reverse the relative. ie try using key of Eb to get a different arrangement. You will have to play with it but you'll come up with very interesting passages. Hopes this helps

You lost me. Please explain in detail to a novice

A-minor is the relative minor of C
C-major is the relative major of A-minor

How does Eb fit in ?

- Larry

[lw216316]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Hi Larry…

Sure you can, ....
If you really want to up the ante then put it into an alternate tuning. I have an experimental - and far too lengthy - version (What Child Is This has the same tune and chords) in CGCGCD where I experimented with alternating the V chord between major and minor.
It is heRe - CLiCK

Well, I took a risk and put my ignorance on display
in order to ask the question-
but I'm glad I did
This opens up some interesting possibilities for me.

Your piece sounds very nice -
for now, I'll stay with standard tuning -
as my brain is stretched to the limit with all the new things I'm learning.

thanks for your comments
- Larry

[lw216316]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

This is an interesting topic. I love that someone wants to talk about approaches to arranging and so on! I thought it'd be easier to clarify what I was talking about - far from the only possible approach, of course - with a demo rather than trying to type. Here's a very ragged explanation and demo of what I was trying to say:

Major/Minor conversion demo

Doug- thank you so much for the sample-
that is exactly what I was hoping for -
it sounds really nice to my ear -

I'm excited about exploring these possibilities.
I need to listen to your sample and study it some more to
get a complete understanding of it.

Is it audio only ? - I did not see any video -
but my home computer is out of date - maybe video is there and
I'm not equiped to handle it.

I may have some more questions after I study your sample-
thanks so much
- Larry

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by lw216316

Is it audio only ? - I did not see any video -

Ah, I should have just hit record on my webcam... No, that was just audio.

[rick-slo]

Some songs you can change from major to minor or vice versa and it works out fine. Others don't work out so well. Chord leading gives a hint. For example take a I - IV- V progression in the key of C. The relative minor to C is Am. Say you started the tune with a Am chord progression rather than a C chord progression - then you would have a vi - ii - iii progression (relative to the C scale). You will find that vi - ii may be ok but ii - iii is more of a problem. You can do some convolutions with extended chordings, chord substitutions and/or throwing in some extra chords for transitioning but it often isn't pretty or convincing.

[lw216316]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

Some songs you can change from major to minor or vice versa and it works out fine. Others don't work out so well. Chord leading gives a hint. For example take a I - IV- V progression in the key of C. The relative minor to C is Am. Say you started the tune with a Am chord progression rather than a C chord progression - then you would have a vi - ii - iii progression (relative to the C scale). You will find that vi - ii may be ok but ii - iii is more of a problem. You can do some convolutions with extended chordings, chord substitutions and/or throwing in some extra chords for transitioning but it often isn't pretty or convincing.

With the MAJOR scale -
the rule is WHOLE WHOLE HALF WHOLE WHOLE WHOLE HALF
(steps between notes)
and for the major chords that go with the scale-
I - major
II - minor
III- minor
IV- major
V- major
VI- minor

and for MINOR
the rule is WHOLE HALF WHOLE WHOLE HALF WHOLE WHOLE

for example the A-minor scale would be
Am B C D E F G Am

WHAT IS THE RULE FOR THE CHORDS THAT GO WITH THE MINOR SCALE
I- minor
II - (major or minor ? )
III - (major or minor ? )
IV - (major or minor ? )
V - (major or minor ? )
VI - (major or minor ? )

I checked a couple of theory books I have and could not find it.

- Larry