carbon fiber?

[David Eastwood]

Originally Posted by ewalling

I have yet to be impressed. I've played some in Sam Ash and owned a few Emeralds, but I've found them to be a bit meh. From my limited experience, they seem to manage the lows and the mids reasonably well but have a rather dull treble response. That delightful 'ring' we get from a wooden box hasn't been reproduced on the cf models I've played so far.

To be fair, you could easily find a wooden guitar which exhibits the same sonic characteristics, and they certainly don't all have that 'ring'.

Originally Posted by KevinH

But the question of do they sound like wood has always seemed kind of pointless to me. They sound like guitars. They have certain sonic characteristics just as wood or metal guitars so. Whether or not a certain CF guitar appeals to someone is a matter of personal preference, just like wood.

Couldn't agree more. At least no-one has yet suggested that they sound like plastic

[ewalling]

Originally Posted by David Eastwood

To be fair, you could easily find a wooden guitar which exhibits the same sonic characteristics, and they certainly don't all have that 'ring'.

Sure they don't, but I have yet to play a single carbon fibre guitar that has it. I haven't played that many, as I said, so I'll suspend judgement. Maybe I've just played the wrong ones, who knows.

[steelvibe]

I bought a Journey OF660 back in 2018 that has been on multiple flights and a couple cruises. Great ergonomics with bevels and soft edges and has some of the best tone of all the CF guitars I’ve played. Also no stress from the natural elements or tarmac warriors at the airport- just another plus.

One thing about the OF660 I used to criticize was that it is on the compressed side as far as projection. However, on one of the cruises it was loud enough that my fingerstyle with little nail caught the attention of a listener on the deck above. That was a real “ear opener” for me and I just accept the guitar for what it is. It also excels plugged in. I guess I like it.

Merry Christmas everyone! [emoji319]

[nellatrab]

I have played a few highend CF's at my local shop "dream guitars"...they sound and feel very nice, but just seemed a bit glassy in tone...loud, defined clarity, but very different from wood. Loud for me doesn't always equate to great tone and seemed to be missing that wooden soul. None of this is necessarily a bad thing and a great tool choice for the traveling musician.

[The Bard Rocks]

I see CF as occupying a parallel universe. To me, they lack color, but have their own sound.(Before you say anything, I have not played Emeralds, but have played Ransong, Journey, and CA). My Blackbird would be the last guitar I pick up at home, yet one of my friends won't bring guitars to my hime, knowing he can play the Blackbird; he never fails to remark how perfect it isi for him.

What they say about CF and tuning, ability to withstand the varieties of humidity, hot cars, freezing cold... - it's all true. How much does any of us value these things? I might add that thought the Lucky 13 I have is my smallest guitar, it certainly isn't the lightest. They are, incidentally, the only CF I have found without a cutaway. And the only 13 fret production guitar that I have found.

As far as predictions go, I see CF and other non-wood materials as gaining market share over time. More like wedging in than shoving aside.

[Newbflat]

I have a Rainsong OM1000 and I like it, but I can’t say I love it. I have it for one reason really, as a camping, rafting and traveling guitar. I can leave it in the truck in any weather conditions be it freezing or roasting and not think twice. This is NOT an over rated trait. It’s not very loud, a bit thin in the bass/low end and lacks color in its tone. It sounds very clean and a bit sterile and I find it harder to play in a more nuanced fashion. I took out the pezo and replaced the saddle with bone and that added a bit more texture to the sound. Have settled on Martin retro monel (med) and that seems to bring out a bit more of an organic woody sound and tone down some of the glassy treble… at least after they brake in for a couple weeks. It plays very well even if I’m not a fan of the narrow neck (shallow C). It suites its purpose well and as I joke with my partner “sounds fine”… But I’m comparing it to a Huss and Dalton TOM-M and a Lowden O-32 I play the majority of the time. If I play the Rainsong for an extended period I think it sounds pretty nice and satisfying and….”sounds fine”. Then I pick up my H&D and remember… oh, right, this is in a totally different league. I got mine for $1000 and it’s great for what I need it for, but if I was shopping for a lovely responsive, organic and nuanced sounding guitar I would have hung it back up after a couple of minutes play. I would like to try a McPherson Sable and maybe that would grab me, but it would take a big change in sound for me to want to pay $3000 for one. If I was stolen I would definitely seek out another CF guitar right away. The ability to just not worry about it while camping in the desert, skiing or on a river trip is worth a LOT.. I would never take any of my other guitars with me other wise.

[ewalling]

Originally Posted by Newbflat

I have a Rainsong OM1000 and I like it, but I can’t say I love it. ... It’s not very loud, a bit thin in the bass/low end and lacks color in its tone. It sounds very clean and a bit sterile and I find it harder to play in a more nuanced fashion. … I got mine for $1000 and it’s great for what I need it for

Did you never consider buying a small economical solid-top, lam-back and sides wooden instrument for travel purposes? You could buy two or even three good-sounding guitars for the price you paid for that Rainsong.

[SpruceTop]

Originally Posted by ewalling

Did you never consider buying a small economical solid-top, lam-back and sides wooden instrument for travel purposes? You could buy two or even three good-sounding guitars for the price you paid for that Rainsong.

Carbon Fiber/Composite guitars can be very low-cost along with good quality these days. The Enya X4 Pro AcousticPlus can be had for $580 (today's price) to $900 depending on any current Amazon promotion. I have one of these and consider it the best $700 bucks I've ever spent on any guitar. Once set up, these guitars sound very good whether played plugged in or played acoustically. This guitar is like a cross between a McPherson Sable Honeycomb Top and a RainSong OM offset soundhole model. The only turn-off for some players may be its 1 11/16" fingerboard-at-nut width.

Enya X4 Pro AcousticPlus Information

[Newbflat]

Originally Posted by ewalling

Did you never consider buying a small economical solid-top, lam-back and sides wooden instrument for travel purposes? You could buy two or even three good-sounding guitars for the price you paid for that Rainsong.

Sure, but didn’t want a “travel sized” guitar, I was looking for a long scale one. While I didn’t sound super enthusiastic about the Rainsong I’m also comparing it very nice guitars that cost almost 3 times what this Rainsong costs these days, not exactly a fair comparison. It still sounds better than any laminate guitar I have ever heard and anything with a solid top is still delicate. I do a lot of river trips and there is always the chance your guitar will be deep sixed. Even in a gig bag or hard case and then in a dry bag (no one makes a 100% dry “dry bag” at the moment. Time to step up and make one Watershed Drydags!) if it’s on top of the raft and it flips and spends 20 min upside down it might be swimming in its “dry bag”. Some river trips dip into the 20° at night before heading back into the 60 during the day. So the guitar literally freezes at night over and over. If I’m going to get a guitar for the purpose of being completely impervious to the elements then wood guitar of any kind is not it. When it comes right down to it if I can’t use any wood based guitar as a paddle if needed I’m not interested, with my Rainsong I would just poor the water out and it would shrug it off and ask what we are playing before dinner. If I hadn’t bought the Rainsong 5 years ago I might give on of those Enya x4’s a shot. They are at at under $600 today and seem to “sound fine”…

[SpruceTop]

Originally Posted by Newbflat

Sure, but didn’t want a “travel sized” guitar, I was looking for a long scale one. While I didn’t sound super enthusiastic about the Rainsong I’m also comparing it very nice guitars that cost almost 3 times what this Rainsong costs these days, not exactly a fair comparison. It still sounds better than any laminate guitar I have ever heard and anything with a solid top is still delicate. I do a lot of river trips and there is always the chance your guitar will be deep sixed. Even in a gig bag or hard case and then in a dry bag (no one makes a 100% dry “dry bag” at the moment. Time to step up and make one Watershed Drydags!) if it’s on top of the raft and it flips and spends 20 min upside down it might be swimming in its “dry bag”. Some river trips dip into the 20° at night before heading back into the 60 during the day. So the guitar literally freezes at night over and over. If I’m going to get a guitar for the purpose of being completely impervious to the elements then wood guitar of any kind is not it. When it comes right down to it if I can’t use any wood based guitar as a paddle if needed I’m not interested, with my Rainsong I would just poor the water out and it would shrug it off and ask what we are playing before dinner. If I hadn’t bought the Rainsong 5 years ago I might give on of those Enya x4’s a shot. They are at at under $600 today and seem to “sound fine”…

I wonder when wooden-guitar-only aficionados will ever accept and respect carbon fiber guitars for what they bring to guitar tone and durability.

[RP]

Originally Posted by SpruceTop

I wonder when wooden-guitar-only aficionados will ever accept and respect carbon fiber guitars for what they bring to guitar tone and durability.

Why should the respect of others really matter? Those of us who own or want to own carbon fiber guitars are well aware of what they bring to the party, and I just don't think that the "respect" of others is important. Is that really any different than those who look down on certain brands of wooden guitars. Imagine what it's like for owners of Estebans, the Rodney Dangerfield of guitars...

[SpruceTop]

Imagine what it's like for owners of Estebans, the Rodney Dangerfield of guitars...

I just spit out my beer! Thanks for putting the whole thing in a realistic light!

[Captain Jim]

Originally Posted by SpruceTop

I wonder when wooden-guitar-only aficionados will ever accept and respect carbon fiber guitars for what they bring to guitar tone and durability.

"Hey, my mind is made up - don't try to muddy the waters by using facts!"

Acoustic guitar players tend to be traditional. And there's nothing wrong with that. Except for the fact that they might be missing out on some great guitars.

About a decade ago, I bought a carbon fiber guitar to be my "travel" (from living on a boat to being in an RV in the desert southwest) guitar. Even though I had some nice wood guitars, I was immediately hooked on the crisp piano-like tone of that RainSong Shorty. Two things I didn't care for: the chunky NS neck and the "compression" when you played harder (seemed to be all mid-tones, dropping the lows).

Then came an Emerald X7 - smaller than the Shorty, more comfortable neck, better bass, and the most comfortable ergonomics I'd ever experienced in an acoustic guitar. You could play it soft, you could dig in, it sounds great acoustically, kicks butt when plugged in. Tone-wise, it was so far beyond the Taylor GSmini that had been my travel guitar (for those who say "buy three laminate guitars for the price of a carbon fiber"). I love this compact (previous generation) guitar.

Then, another Emerald. And another. Each bringing different tones and sizes. Yeah, kinda like buying different wood guitars. I have a nice Rosewood and Spruce wood guitar (Taylor 814ce) and an all mahogany 522ce 12-fret. I appreciate the tone of each of those. Recently added a maple and spruce 12-string (Taylor 652ce WHB Builder's Edition). All these guitars, wood and carbon fiber, bring their unique tone. To my ear, there isn't one "wood tone" that represents all wood guitars, and there isn't one "carbon fiber tone" that represents all the CF guitars.

I don't play out much anymore. I always wanted a guitar that sounds good to my ears in my music room and can handle a crowd when plugged in. To my ears, I have a lot of tolerance for what works plugged in. In 58 years of playing, I have yet to have someone listening say, "I don't care for the tone of your guitar." Fortunately, most of them are too polite to say, "Your playing reminds me of two cats fighting in an alley." All that to say: I have never gotten into the nuance of "rosewood vs sapele"... I like a guitar that sounds like a guitar. All of my guitars fulfill that.

Wood vs Carbon Fiber is something else for people to talk about on guitar forums. Buy what you like. But trying to convince someone that their opinion on any guitar or material it is made from is wrong is like discussing politics on Facebook: you will find people who agree with you and people who don't... but no one's mind gets changed and it is wasted effort that, at best, pisses people off.

Bottom line: carbon fiber is a viable option. For some of us. Not for others. If it works for you, you are going to find it real easy to live with.

[SpruceTop]

Originally Posted by Captain Jim

"Hey, my mind is made up - don't try to muddy the waters by using facts!"

Acoustic guitar players tend to be traditional. And there's nothing wrong with that. Except for the fact that they might be missing out on some great guitars.

About a decade ago, I bought a carbon fiber guitar to be my "travel" (from living on a boat to being in an RV in the desert southwest) guitar. Even though I had some nice wood guitars, I was immediately hooked on the crisp piano-like tone of that RainSong Shorty. Two things I didn't care for: the chunky NS neck and the "compression" when you played harder (seemed to be all mid-tones, dropping the lows).

Then came an Emerald X7 - smaller than the Shorty, more comfortable neck, better bass, and the most comfortable ergonomics I'd ever experienced in an acoustic guitar. You could play it soft, you could dig in, it sounds great acoustically, kicks butt when plugged in. Tone-wise, it was so far beyond the Taylor GSmini that had been my travel guitar (for those who say "buy three laminate guitars for the price of a carbon fiber"). I love this compact (previous generation) guitar.

Then, another Emerald. And another. Each bringing different tones and sizes. Yeah, kinda like buying different wood guitars. I have a nice Rosewood and Spruce wood guitar (Taylor 814ce) and an all mahogany 522ce 12-fret. I appreciate the tone of each of those. Recently added a maple and spruce 12-string (Taylor 652ce WHB Builder's Edition). All these guitars, wood and carbon fiber, bring their unique tone. To my ear, there isn't one "wood tone" that represents all wood guitars, and there isn't one "carbon fiber tone" that represents all the CF guitars.

I don't play out much anymore. I always wanted a guitar that sounds good to my ears in my music room and can handle a crowd when plugged in. To my ears, I have a lot of tolerance for what works plugged in. In 58 years of playing, I have yet to have someone listening say, "I don't care for the tone of your guitar." Fortunately, most of them are too polite to say, "Your playing reminds me of two cats fighting in an alley." All that to say: I have never gotten into the nuance of "rosewood vs sapele"... I like a guitar that sounds like a guitar. All of my guitars fulfill that.

Wood vs Carbon Fiber is something else for people to talk about on guitar forums. Buy what you like. But trying to convince someone that their opinion on any guitar or material it is made from is wrong is like discussing politics on Facebook: you will find people who agree with you and people who don't... but no one's mind gets changed and it is wasted effort that, at best, pisses people off.

Bottom line: carbon fiber is a viable option. For some of us. Not for others. If it works for you, you are going to find it real easy to live with.

Thanks, Captain! Yes, I really don't care what other players like or not but being passionate about good carbon-guitar tone, I feel as do you, many players may be missing out on something that a carbon guitar may bring to their playing experience. Not only have I purchased three new carbon guitars this year, but I've also bought six new, fine, all-wood guitars, and I'm enjoying them all. Let's All Play On!

[raysachs]

I have two wood acoustics (both Martins - a CEO-7 and 000-28EC) and a carbon fiber Sable. I reach for the wooden guitars somewhat more often than the Sable, but when I play the Sable, I don’t find anything lacking - it’s a fantastic sounding (and playing) guitar that’s a bit different from either of the wooden acoustics. Realistically, any of the three could be a one and only all-rounder. But they all serve their purpose and they’re different enough that I like having and playing all of them. But if I could only keep one of them, it might well be the Sable because of the durability and care-free attributes it brings to the dance in ADDITION to sounding and playing great. I spent 25 years with just one acoustic guitar and I wasn’t any happier than I would have been if it had been a Sable.

-Ray