What I don't understand about the Carbon fiber Guitar world....

[Captain Jim]

If one was to compare a Taylor and a Martin, which one would sound more like wood? A Froggy Bottom with an Olson?

Each acoustic guitar I have sounds different from the others. They all sound like... guitars. In the 50+ years I've been playing, I don't recall any two guitars sounding the same.

The original post on this thread was about making CF guitars look "pretty" vs making them sound the best possible. Looks matters. Life is too short to play a boring guitar. My favorite wood guitar is a Taylor 814ce that has a tobacco burst finish; curly maple binding. The dark top on that guitar doesn't look like most of the other 814s with a natural spruce top. It was the look of that guitar that caught my eye, but it also has the best tone (to my ear) of any wood acoustic I've owned. My favorite carbon fiber guitar is my X20 with a lauro preto veneer. Great tone and unique appearance. It was in the second Select Series Emerald offered, and it was the look that grabbed me by the eyeballs.

Both of those guitars sound like... guitars. My ears prefer the sound of the X20, but that is only if pressed to pick one. As far as day-to-day playing, they are similar in size, but the X20 is far more comfortable to hold and play. The bevels and compound curves are another advantage that carbon fiber can bring to the playing experience. The upturned soundhole is probably my favorite feature of that guitar.

I agree that the sound that comes out of a guitar is important. But, our tastes change, even our hearing changes. I don't need a guitar to be "a canon" - it needs to sound good to my ears, and I can amplify it when I need more volume. I have one guitar that is relatively quiet to play, but really shines when plugged in... it is nice to play when sitting on the couch or out on the deck; lovely balanced tone.

In an extensive survey based on a sample of one, I find the guitar that travels with us when we're out for several months at a time becomes my "favorite"... it is the guitar that I hear each day and that my lap and fingers experience as normal. Then we come home and I get to play my other guitars, and I experience what each one offers... in size, feel, tone, and appearance.

We are in a great age of guitars. Is there one that is "the best"? I can have a favorite but still appreciate all the others.

[Fixedgear60]

Originally Posted by Captain Jim

But, our tastes change, even our hearing changes.

Hi Cap,

I think you hit the nail ... the only drawback that I have found with CF guitars. Their sound does not change or "open up" with age. I would argue...would love to see the data on this ...CF guitar turnover is higher than wood because as players we are constantly evolving and perhaps a fine wood guitar evolves better with us.

With that all said... I would not trade my McPherson Touring or Emerald Amicus for any current models in the market. They have settled in nicely over the past 3+ years after a 10+ year search and trial and error with all the major manufactures...

[Earl49]

IMHO it is unrealistic to expect a carbon fiber guitar to sound exactly like a quality wood guitar. They are really two entirely different animals, each with strengths and weaknesses. Put another way, you would not buy a Corvette when you really needed a pickup truck. I have room for both man-made composite and nature's composite (wood) in my stable.

[The Bard Rocks]

It seems to me that if I were proudly playing a carbon fiber guitar, i would want it to look like one. The same kind of feeling i'd have if i were black, I'd want to be proud of it.

[steelvibe]

Originally Posted by The Bard Rocks

It seems to me that if I were proudly playing a carbon fiber guitar, i would want it to look like one. The same kind of feeling i'd have if i were black, I'd want to be proud of it.

I agree and I don't. I've owned 2 black acoustics and liked the look just fine. Carbon has a unique beauty all its own but also, and more importantly, lends itself to breaking every build technique confined to wooden lutherie.

AND....If you could have the rigidity of CF but an exotic piece of stunning and organic top wood why not? It isn't pretentious but rather a nod of appreciation from the CF enthusiasts to the old world. It also is a statement that destroys the notion that all CF guitars are exactly the same.

[Captain Jim]

Originally Posted by steelvibe

I agree and I don't. I've owned 2 black acoustics and liked the look just fine. Carbon has a unique beauty all its own but also, and more importantly, lends itself to breaking every build technique confined to wooden lutherie.

AND....If you could have the rigidity of CF but an exotic piece of stunning and organic top wood why not? It isn't pretentious but rather a nod of appreciation from the CF enthusiasts to the old world. It also is a statement that destroys the notion that all CF guitars are exactly the same.

That ^^ right there. A guitar is a personal instrument - there are a lot of gorgeous guitars out there, wood and carbon fiber. For some, it is just a tool; for many of us, it is a lot more than that. Great to have options.

[byudzai]

Originally Posted by Captain Jim

If one was to compare a Taylor and a Martin, which one would sound more like wood? A Froggy Bottom with an Olson?

...

We are in a great age of guitars. Is there one that is "the best"? I can have a favorite but still appreciate all the others.

This is the sweetest, most focused, most comprehensive summary of the CF experience I've ever read! Leave it to the Captain!

[SprintBob]

I’ve lived in the world of high performance composites for the last 30 years and I wonder if Rainsong, Emerald, and McPherson are using an autoclave in their manufacturing process.

The highest performance composite construction is done using what is called pre-preg where the carbon cloth is pre-impregnated with a very exact amount of resin (typically epoxy resin) to get the best resin to cloth ratio for the specific properties you are trying to achieve for the application. The pre-preg material is typically kept in cold storage (so the resin does not catalyze) and then the cloth is laid into the mold. If doing a laminate construction, there will be some type of foam or Nomex sandwich. The mold is then put into what is called an autoclave where vacuum is pulled and heat is applied. Autoclaves are pressure vessels that typically are designed with an interior volume to accommodate the mold of the part or structure being built. It is a much more precise manufacturing method than laying materials into the mold, brushing resin in, and then using a squeegee to get the excess out. Setting up an autoclave using pre-preg material is a substantial capital investment so I’m not sure If the guitar manufacturer’s are there yet. It’s perfectly acceptable to do a “wet” layup but takes more time and cannot optimize the final laminate as well as the autoclave/pre-preg can.

I’m on my 3rd CF guitar. I’ve bought them primarily as travel guitars but starting with my 2nd (the Rainsong in my sig below) I began to believe that tonally they can hold their own quite well to most of the mid to high end factory guitars. Where I believe they fall behind is measured against the higher end boutique wood guitars. My Emerald X-20 is beautiful to look at and super comfortable to play. It has both excellent sustain and string to string balance. But when I put it in the playing circle with my Froggy Bottom, Doerr, Collings, and Edwinson wood guitars, it can’t match them in volume, overtone complexity (if you like that), and that through your body resonance those guitars produce. I’ve never played a McPherson, I’d sure like to at some point.

It’s an unfair comparison. The Emeralds are production guitars with custom options (like a Taylor BTO) as are the Rainsongs. But since they cost substantially less than the higher end wood boutique guitars, they score high in value and performance (and I’ve not even mentioned how care-free they are to own). And you know what, I bet in 5 years, the X-20 you have now will be different tonally in a good way and perhaps we might see an X-20 built with model variations based on specific tonal preferences (dry-fundamental, wet/lots of bloom/overtones). Exciting times.

[Earl49]

Bob, I'm pretty sure that Rainsong uses refrigerated pre-preg fabric and an autoclave. I recall seeing that in a factory tour video once. The late great Composite Acoustics did that too IIRC, and perhaps Blackbird when they were still using CF. I don't think that Emerald builds that way but have no inside information. Perhaps the layup-and-squeegee method accounts for the variability between their guitars that Simon recently mentioned, and that I have now experienced.

What I do recall is that at Elderly Instruments 20 years ago, we carefully chose between all five Rainsong WS-1000's they had in stock that day, plus a couple of CA guitars too. The Rainsong's all sounded the same, but we chose our example based on very subtle differences in setup feel and cosmetic factors like minor folds in the CF weave in a few corners. That was my only CF guitar until about 2015 when I decided to make the conversion from wood to CF overall. First it was a Lucky 13, the an Emerald Chimaera, then an X20 and an X20-12.

[SpruceTop]

RainSong does use pre-preg carbon fiber that is kept refrigerated until being used.

[Aspiring]

I've oftened wondered what combinations with wood could bring. Composite technology is very cool.

One of my other hobbies is sailing. The boats in this picture
https://images.app.goo.gl/uWhsj8kDfqxqQXoP8

Very much look like wood but are actually built with a red cedar core that is laminated between s glass carbon and kevlar all laid up with epoxy.

The builder chose the cedar core due to its properties vs foam and nomex or similar traditional composite boat building materials.

It would be interesting to see how a similar structure would do as a soundboard

[AZLiberty]

Originally Posted by Earl49

Bob, I'm pretty sure that Rainsong uses refrigerated pre-preg fabric and an autoclave. I recall seeing that in a factory tour video once.

What I do recall is that at Elderly Instruments 20 years ago, we carefully chose between all five Rainsong WS-1000's they had in stock that day, plus a couple of CA guitars too.

Modern Rainsongs use Pre-preg. Older ones did not. The change to pre-preg coinsides with the change from the N1 neck to the N2.

It's one of the reasons it took so long to bring back 12-strings. Those molds were not designed for use with pre-preg.

[SpruceTop]

Originally Posted by Aspiring

I've oftened wondered what combinations with wood could bring. Composite technology is very cool.

One of my other hobbies is sailing. The boats in this picture
https://images.app.goo.gl/uWhsj8kDfqxqQXoP8

Very much look like wood but are actually built with a red cedar core that is laminated between s glass carbon and kevlar all laid up with epoxy.

The builder chose the cedar core due to its properties vs foam and nomex or similar traditional composite boat building materials.

It would be interesting to see how a similar structure would do as a soundboard

Wonder No More ... Likely Not What You Had In Mind But Back To The Future Anyway ...

Read Original Thread Here

Adamas Guitars Page On Ovation Website

Below Is My Lead OP From My Original Review Thread:

I received my new 2020 Adamas I 2087GT-8 Custom Reverse Blue Burst, Thursday, November 5, 2020, three days after it appeared in the Guitar Gallery. Six weeks ago, I noticed it was on order and checked daily to see when it would arrive. I had asked my sales engineer, Chris Lewis, for his best nice price and got the guitar for just north of $4K USD. The Adamas, with a late-October 2020 serial number, arrived in flawless condition and is a credit to the five or so Ovation Custom Shop craftsman in New Hartford, Connecticut. With its Deep Contoured Bowl, the guitar is comfortable and stays put just as well as a conventional wooden guitar. The Adamas features a balanced tone with a crystalline-like shimmer that would amplify and record with minimal EQ. Acoustically, if a Martin HD-28 is a sledgehammer, think of the Adamas as a jeweler's hammer that IMHO would be a joy as an acoustic guitar for jazz-/rock-/and pop-artists to play. Amplified, with its Ovation OCP-1 Pickup/Op Pro Studio Preamp system, the Adamas I 2087GT-8 can be just about anything a player needs or may want it to be in many live-performance situations.

The Adamas I 2087GT-8 Custom Reverse Blue Burst specs are listed below:

String Type: Steel
Number of Strings: 6
Body Shape: Deep Contour Cutaway
Left-/Right-handed: Right-handed
Color: Reverse Blue Burst
Finish: Satin
Top Wood: Ultra-thin Carbon Fiber
Back & Sides Wood: Hand-laid Advanced Composite
Body Bracing: Adamas Fan-bracing
Binding: Carved Glass-filled Composite
Neck Wood: American Black Walnut
Neck Shape: Ovation Soft V
Radius: 10"
Fingerboard Material: Walnut
Fingerboard Inlay: Maple
Number of Frets: 22, Nickel Silver
Scale Length: 25.3"
Tuning Machines: Schaller with Gold buttons
Bridge Material: Carved Walnut
Nut/Saddle Material: Bone/ABS
Nut Width: 1.692"
Electronics: OP Pro Studio
Strings: Adamas, .012-.053
Case Included: Hardshell Case
Weight 4lbs 15 ozs

What a gorgeous guitar! The pictures are great. Thanks for bringing that here.

[bostosh]

Originally Posted by sgavy

There are so many variables at play when making a carbon fibre instrument. As someone who has both worked to a manufacturer and has a lot of experience with carbon and guitars, I do believe wood has an impact the sound. However, there are many variables at play and unless a manufacture has an extremely robust and repeatable procedure other factors can play a bigger part (so it's tricky to isolate the impact of wood).

I've recently been doing a lot of research on this topic, but i agree with the topic of this thread. The scope for carbon fibre to be unique and special is sometimes restricted by manufactures emulating wood. I'll share my findings with you guys when I finish the paper.

Have you seen this research paper? It may take a while to load from the university but i have it downloaded in case.
https://ruor.uottawa.ca/bitstream/10...015_thesis.pdf