Schatten HFN passive pickup - my experience

[harpon]

Hey monsum- could you post a youtube Link to the video- I have some kind of Windows 8 software problem that doesn't put that window up.

Thank you

[Monsum]

Originally Posted by harpon

Hey monsum- could you post a youtube Link to the video- I have some kind of Windows 8 software problem that doesn't put that window up.

Thank you

Here you go:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vasU7vfLXTc

[Petty1818]

I still struggle with the HFN lacking a bit of low end. I mean it picks up the low E but it kind of reminds me more of the Lyric, which doesn't add bass. I sometimes miss that enhanced low end.

[Daniel Grenier]

And another HFN Passive story here ....

So I installed an HFN passive in my 000-28 using the tape along with Elixir strings. The E was much too weak and lacked bass but string noise was minimal.

I figured I'd try a putty install so as to even out the strings. I needed new strings so I got Martin's Authentic Light MA540T as opposed to my usual Elixirs (change is good?).

Well, now the strings are far more even in volume but string noise is just horrendous. I don't mean from sliding fret to fret (expected) but just barely moving a finger within a fret. The slightest movement is picked up by the HFN to the point of hair-pulling. That thing picks up EVERYTHING!

Surely, the strings have something to do with it but has anyone else noticed an unacceptable increase in string noise using the HFN Passive?

[jonfields45]

I did not notice any change in string noise/squeak for the one guitar that had an Element UST prior to the HFN (the others were first PUP installs).

The one guitar with too little bass response was fixed by pressing on the HFN harder to seat the tape better.

[stevecuss]

[QUOTE=Daniel Grenier;6121701]And another HFN Passive story here ....

So I installed an HFN passive in my 000-28 using the tape along with Elixir strings. The E was much too weak and lacked bass but string noise was minimal.

I figured I'd try a putty install so as to even out the strings. I needed new strings so I got Martin's Authentic Light MA540T as opposed to my usual Elixirs (change is good?).

Well, now the strings are far more even in volume but string noise is just horrendous. I don't mean from sliding fret to fret (expected) but just barely moving a finger within a fret. The slightest movement is picked up by the HFN to the point of hair-pulling. That thing picks up EVERYTHING!

Surely, the strings have something to do with it but has anyone else noticed an unacceptable increase in string noise using the HFN Passive?[/QUOTED]

Hmmm. Something is amiss, I think. I replaced a Trance with a passive HFN and even though I have to crank an external preamp quite high, the string noise is less than the Trance.

I use putty install, FYI

[CitizenAudio]

is the putty a very secure method over time? How does humidity, temperature changes affect the install?

Why is glue not an option like the K&K pure mini's?

[jonfields45]

Originally Posted by CitizenAudio

is the putty a very secure method over time? How does humidity, temperature changes affect the install?

Why is glue not an option like the K&K pure mini's?

Les Schatten told me he prefers tape. Putty apparently is good enough. I am told that a piezo SBT is a bending sensor and you can think of the HFN elevated base as a bit of a mechanical amplifier of bends which allows a less brittle attachment adhesive. The HFN is a single thin saddle long piezo sensor instead of three disks. Even mounted with tape an HFN is lower output than a super glued K&K. If you mount a K&K Mini with tape you get a greatly reduced output. I tried it once with a JJB and thought the tone was OK but I still removed it and reinstalled with cyanoacrylate. I imagine putty and a K&K would drop the output way too low.

[GuitarLuva]

Originally Posted by CitizenAudio

is the putty a very secure method over time? How does humidity, temperature changes affect the install?

Why is glue not an option like the K&K pure mini's?

Yes the putty is a great install method. I have 3 putty installs and 1 tape. The putty yields a little warmer tone than the tape. You shouldn't have issues with either method over time though. I would lean towards putty for longevity. One of the main attractions people have to this pickup is to avoid using glue or epoxy on their guitars.

[Petty1818]

Originally Posted by GuitarLuva

Yes the putty is a great install method. I have 3 putty installs and 1 tape. The putty yields a little warmer tone than the tape. You shouldn't have issues with either method over time though. I would lean towards putty for longevity. One of the main attractions people have to this pickup is to avoid using glue or epoxy on their guitars.

It's funny, I still find the opposite. The tape seems to give a warmer, more balanced tone. The putty is fine but it seems to bring out the highs.

[jonfields45]

What we need is for someone to do a HFN putty install, then a tape reinstall, and then a cyanoacrylate reinstall and report back.

But I imagine there is some guitar to guitar variation that might favor one over the other that won't be factored out of this experiment. Has anyone glued one in and reported on the AGF?

[GuitarLuva]

Originally Posted by Petty1818

It's funny, I still find the opposite. The tape seems to give a warmer, more balanced tone. The putty is fine but it seems to bring out the highs.

Maybe the guitars? Hard to say. My installs have primarily been in dreadnoughts. I never actually did a proper A/B myself of putty vs tape in the same guitar. My most recent install with tape was also in a dreadnought, but a cedar top. Next string change I will swap to putty and do a comparison. I'm not sure if you seen this video from a different thread, Monsum was kind enough to take the time to do this comparison. In this demo, the tape install sounds brighter to my ears:

Originally Posted by jonfields45

What we need is for someone to do a HFN putty install, then a tape reinstall, and then a cyanoacrylate reinstall and report back.

But I imagine there is some guitar to guitar variation that might favor one over the other that won't be factored out of this experiment. Has anyone glued one in and reported on the AGF?

In my very first experience with this pickup I used the tape. I was quite happy with the sound I got but it did need some EQ. I knew it was going to be a keeper so I wanted to try glue and I used Loctite 495 and glued it in. In this instance, the glue and tape sounded very close to the same tonally, but the glue install was "hotter" which was kind of expected. A few days after that I decided to try the putty and that gave me a full sound that didn't require any EQ. This is what first made me favor the putty. Looking back now I think I had uneven contact with the tape/glue but the putty straightened it out. Whether it was the guitar or pickup causing the uneven contact I can't say for sure. That was in a carbon fiber guitar.

I did pass this info to Martingitdave a while ago and he used gorilla glue to install the pickup and made a thread about it. I vaguely remember him saying that he liked it at first and then eventually changed his opinion and removed it. Despite what I said to Petty above, maybe I'll try the loctite glue on my next string change instead of putty in that guitar. I won't use superglue in a wooden guitar ever again as it seeps into the bridge plate and is of course hard to clean up. I'm not sure if loctite will seep into the bridge plate but at least I know that it's really easy to clean up.

[martingitdave]

Originally Posted by GuitarLuva

Maybe the guitars? Hard to say. My installs have primarily been in dreadnoughts. I never actually did a proper A/B myself of putty vs tape in the same guitar. My most recent install with tape was also in a dreadnought, but a cedar top. Next string change I will swap to putty and do a comparison. I'm not sure if you seen this video from a different thread, Monsum was kind enough to take the time to do this comparison. In this demo, the tape install sounds brighter to my ears:





In my very first experience with this pickup I used the tape. I was quite happy with the sound I got but it did need some EQ. I knew it was going to be a keeper so I wanted to try glue and I used Loctite 495 and glued it in. In this instance, the glue and tape sounded very close to the same tonally, but the glue install was "hotter" which was kind of expected. A few days after that I decided to try the putty and that gave me a full sound that didn't require any EQ. This is what first made me favor the putty. Looking back now I think I had uneven contact with the tape/glue but the putty straightened it out. Whether it was the guitar or pickup causing the uneven contact I can't say for sure. That was in a carbon fiber guitar.

I did pass this info to Martingitdave a while ago and he used gorilla glue to install the pickup and made a thread about it. I vaguely remember him saying that he liked it at first and then eventually changed his opinion and removed it. Despite what I said to Petty above, maybe I'll try the loctite glue on my next string change instead of putty in that guitar. I won't use superglue in a wooden guitar ever again as it seeps into the bridge plate and is of course hard to clean up. I'm not sure if loctite will seep into the bridge plate but at least I know that it's really easy to clean up.

Yes, the super glue installation of the Schatten initially sounded excellent in the low and mid registers, but ended up being too bright in the high resisters. The hard connection creates a high frequency resonance which has to be EQ'd completely out. It is super harsh. I didn't even hear it until I got it plugged into a high end PA system. Into an acoustic amp or Bose S1, you could barely hear it. But, it was unusable with a full frequency PA system.

Les states that his design is based on the soft couple concept. The piezo is soft coupled to the 3D printed bridge and the 3D printed bridge is soft coupled to the bridge plate. This is how he gets such night high end while other piezo sound dull and lifeless. The bridge creates a high end resonance that flat piezo bender discs can't. But, once you hard couple, that high end resonance gets over driven. I've wondered to myself if a hot glue connection would work, but I won't want to try it myself. In some guitars the putty will make it sound brighter because the highs are still there, but a softer couple is created with the bass strings. In some guitars it is the opposite. It all seems to depend on the connection to the bridge plate.

[GuitarLuva]

Originally Posted by martingitdave

Yes, the super glue installation of the Schatten initially sounded excellent in the low and mid registers, but ended up being too bright in the high resisters. The hard connection creates a high frequency resonance which has to be EQ'd completely out. It is super harsh. I didn't even hear it until I got it plugged into a high end PA system. Into an acoustic amp or Bose S1, you could barely hear it. But, it was unusable with a full frequency PA system.

Les states that his design is based on the soft couple concept. The piezo is soft coupled to the 3D printed bridge and the 3D printed bridge is soft coupled to the bridge plate. This is how he gets such night high end while other piezo sound dull and lifeless. The bridge creates a high end resonance that flat piezo bender discs can't. But, once you hard couple, that high end resonance gets over driven. I've wondered to myself if a hot glue connection would work, but I won't want to try it myself. In some guitars the putty will make it sound brighter because the highs are still there, but a softer couple is created with the bass strings. In some guitars it is the opposite. It all seems to depend on the connection to the bridge plate.

Thanks Dave that's good to know. You might have just convinced me not to bother trying glue again.

[Petty1818]

Originally Posted by GuitarLuva

Maybe the guitars? Hard to say. My installs have primarily been in dreadnoughts. I never actually did a proper A/B myself of putty vs tape in the same guitar. My most recent install with tape was also in a dreadnought, but a cedar top. Next string change I will swap to putty and do a comparison. I'm not sure if you seen this video from a different thread, Monsum was kind enough to take the time to do this comparison. In this demo, the tape install sounds brighter to my ears:





In my very first experience with this pickup I used the tape. I was quite happy with the sound I got but it did need some EQ. I knew it was going to be a keeper so I wanted to try glue and I used Loctite 495 and glued it in. In this instance, the glue and tape sounded very close to the same tonally, but the glue install was "hotter" which was kind of expected. A few days after that I decided to try the putty and that gave me a full sound that didn't require any EQ. This is what first made me favor the putty. Looking back now I think I had uneven contact with the tape/glue but the putty straightened it out. Whether it was the guitar or pickup causing the uneven contact I can't say for sure. That was in a carbon fiber guitar.

I did pass this info to Martingitdave a while ago and he used gorilla glue to install the pickup and made a thread about it. I vaguely remember him saying that he liked it at first and then eventually changed his opinion and removed it. Despite what I said to Petty above, maybe I'll try the loctite glue on my next string change instead of putty in that guitar. I won't use superglue in a wooden guitar ever again as it seeps into the bridge plate and is of course hard to clean up. I'm not sure if loctite will seep into the bridge plate but at least I know that it's really easy to clean up.

I actually sounded down one of the HFN bases to make sure it was straight. I installed it with tape and it was the most balanced tone I had gotten. However, the tone was a bit bright. I looked it and realized that my placement was not very good lol. I am going to try putting it in again properly.

I don't think the HFN will ever be my only pickup in that guitar but I am tempted to install a UST use with the Tonedexter and use the HFN in more intimate settings.