K&K Pure Mini vs. Trinity

[rc3797]

Hey guys,

I recently had a thread about buying my old 1956 J-50 back. I mentioned that I’m planning on having a K&K installed. I initially planned on putting in a pure mini, and I’ve had those in quite a few guitars in the past, and combined with my red eye, they’ve never let me down. However, the more I think about it, I can’t help but wonder if it would be worth it to make the jump up to the Trinity system. I’ve never had a system with an internal mic, but it has to lend itself to a more “authentic” sound, right? I also like the fact that you can blend in the mic depending on the setting you’re playing in. The only thing that is holding me up is the external preamp. Can I still use my red eye on conjunction with it? As the guitar is 60-something years old, and I love the natural acoustic sound, I want to avoid the onboard preamp version to keep the inside as “open” as possible. Also, will the SBT still work normally if I don’t have the box to blend in the mic?

Those of you who have experience with both systems, is the plugged-in tone of the added mic worth the upcharge over the standard mini?

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by rc3797

…Those of you who have experience with both systems, is the plugged-in tone of the added mic worth the upcharge over the standard mini?

Hi rc

I own 4 guitars with a passive Trinity system installed, and it's definitely worth the extra $$$ invested in both the internal mic and external preamp (which supplies power to the internal mics). It is more natural sounding than a pickup by itself.

Another alternative is to have the K&K Pure Mini installed and then purchase a ToneDexter and pull your own waveforms. It is also more natural than just a pickup installed. I also own a ToneDexter.

[guitarman68]

Same with me - the K&K definitely benefits from an internal mic. And you can still go PU only if required using your RedEye. But your Redeye will not feed the internal mic.

[gfirob]

+1 on the Mini and the Tonedexter. The Tonedexter will cover you with multiple guitars and it is hard to beat the sound.

[Crowder]

Originally Posted by guitarman68

Same with me - the K&K definitely benefits from an internal mic. And you can still go PU only if required using your RedEye. But your Redeye will not feed the internal mic.

This is no longer true. Fire Eye recently added several features to the Twin and phantom power is now fed on the second input.

[jamison162]

Originally Posted by Crowder

This is no longer true. Fire Eye recently added several features to the Twin and phantom power is now fed on the second input.

Good to know! Will be revisiting the RE-Twin.

[jamison162]

Originally Posted by jamison162

Good to know! Will be revisiting the RE-Twin.

I can't find any indication that this is true. I think the previous poster is misunderstanding the added phantom power feature. Like the Para DI, the Red-Eye Twin can be powered by 48v phantom power from a mixer, but it does not supply low voltage power for electret condenser mics on the 2nd channel input.

That is, unless Fire-Eye just added this feature and has not updated the product webpage or manual yet.

[rokdog49]

Originally Posted by jamison162

I can't find any indication that this is true. I think the previous poster is misunderstanding the added phantom power feature. Like the Para DI, the Red-Eye Twin can be powered by 48v phantom power from a mixer, but it does not supply low voltage power for electret condenser mics on the 2nd channel input.

That is, unless Fire-Eye just added this feature and has not updated the product webpage or manual yet.

You can always call Darren at Red Eye and ask him.
He’s always ready and willing to discuss his products with anyone.

[jamison162]

Originally Posted by rokdog49

You can always call Darren at Red Eye and ask him.
He’s always ready and willing to discuss his products with anyone.

I did that yesterday, and heard back today. The new units just started shipping 2/01. Here's what Daren said:

"Thanks for the question! Yes, support for low-voltage electret microphone phantom power has been added to the Red-Eye Twin. The fire-eye.com website does not currently disclose the new products but will be updated soon. Please post this new information on forums as you see fit.

Recently Fire-Eye Development announced to resellers the release of a new generation of Red-Eye Preamps, with enhanced features added to the Red-Eye and Red-Eye Twin. All units shipped from the factory starting 2/1/2020 have the added features.

The following enhancements to our design have been implemented with the help of musicians around the world who have continually contributed to improving our products.

For the Red-Eye and Twin...
1) Improved electronics...even more clean headroom
2) Silent push buttons...no ON - OFF click
3) XLR Ground-Lift switch
4) 9 to 18 volt pedal board power jack

For the Twin...
Previously mentioned features +
Power for electret microphones - a switch for channel B enables microphone phantom power - this feature supports blending dual-pickups in instruments that have a piezo pickup and a microphone.

Attached are data sheets for the newly released Red-Eyes.

Thanks and best regards,
Daren / www.fire-eye.com"

Here's the new Data Sheet for the Twin that he sent via email:

https://1drv.ms/b/s!Amwhs7iVLrpioh9V...B3uLj?e=Y7rHc8

[drive-south]

I prefer using an external mic on a stand over anything internal. If you play multiple instruments a good external mic will serve all of them.

[ljguitar]

Hi folks

As a more-than-a-decade Trinity player using a passive K&K Pure Mini and internal mic paired with external preamps, I find the RedEye the most limited preamp in the prosumer line.

If you always play in a fairly typical room at less-than-excessive volumes, then it's fine. But when you need to pull back a strong mid-range or a stray feedback frequency, it's not going to be your friend. RedEye preamps are the equivalent of a point-n-shoot camera.

You are totally dependent on the built-in EQ (except for the treble) and what your other equipment (as in the mixer or amp) provide. It has zero control over bass, low mid, and low-cut/anti-feedback.

If you have lo-cut (high pass filter) and more capable EQ control somewhere else in your chain before it reaches speakers, then you can use that to shape sound. It's designed to be fine as a plug-n-play preamp.

There are more-flexible dual-source preamps available (albeit at a higher cost).

[jamison162]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

You are totally dependent on the built-in EQ

I disagree Larry. With the Red-Eye preamp, one is not totally dependent on the built-in EQ, that's why they included an FX loop. Even boxes that have treble-mid-bass knobs are typically all fixed (shelved) frequencies. An eq pedal in the loop of the Red-Eye or any similar preamp goes a looooong way.

MXR 10-Band $130 ($75 used) and Boss GE7 $120 ($50 used) are a couple of examples. Combine these two and you have 17 bands of graphic eq at your feet. I'm a big fan of this type of setup as it gives you way more flexibility than any single preamp box, parametric eq, or stand-alone mixer which might have 3, maybe 4 bands of eq.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by jamison162

I disagree Larry. With the Red-Eye preamp, one is not totally dependent on the built-in EQ, that's why they included an FX loop. Even boxes that have treble-mid-bass knobs are typically all fixed (shelved) frequencies. An eq pedal in the loop of the Red-Eye or any similar preamp goes a looooong way.

MXR 10-Band $130 ($75 used) and Boss GE7 $120 ($50 used) are a couple of examples. Combine these two and you have 17 bands of graphic eq at your feet. I'm a big fan of this type of setup as it gives you way more flexibility than any single preamp box, parametric eq, or stand-alone mixer which might have 3, maybe 4 bands of eq.

Hi Jamison

Sorry, I did mention add-on-gear in the chain in a post, but if you don't own extra EQ gear, it's just more money to get the basic job done.

At it's price ($300 as of 2/2020), adding an additional $75 + $150 you are now over $500 deep in a preamp. For that kind of money, one can buy a dual source external preamplifier with tone controls and a single cable in/out format. For under $200 you could add a rack mount 15 band or 31 band EQ. I ran one, along with an external compressor for years for my guitar rig. Which meant I had to carry a 6 space rack everywhere I went.

I think the target audience for RedEye preamps is someone looking for a point-n-shoot preamp…not a tweaking rig.

After over a decade of running a dual source with external preamps, I'm sure loving my ToneDexter.

[mmlovesbeer]

Has anyone who upgraded from the K&K Pure Mini to the Trinity experienced any sacrifice of quality with their unplugged acoustic sound? I saw a video where someone said adding a Pure Mini didn't affect his unplugged sound quality, which makes sense because it seems less bulky than many other pickups, but if generally having more things inside the guitar has the potential to affect the sound, does adding that extra mic, mount, and cable from the Trinity to the inside of the guitar affect the unplugged sound quality compared to just having the Pure Mini? Its not much bulk added but it's something. I have a nice Martin and I really care to preserve the unamplified tone. If the Trinity system additions make no difference to the unamplified acoustic quality, the Trinity sounds like the way to go for better amplified sound quality. But if they subtract anything from your unamplified tone, it seems it'd be worth it to just get the Pure Mini as the less-bulk-in-the-guitar option. Anyone have experience with this?

[AeroUSA]

Originally Posted by mmlovesbeer

Has anyone who upgraded from the K&K Pure Mini to the Trinity experienced any sacrifice of quality with their unplugged acoustic sound? I saw a video where someone said adding a Pure Mini didn't affect his unplugged sound quality, which makes sense because it seems less bulky than many other pickups, but if generally having more things inside the guitar has the potential to affect the sound, does adding that extra mic, mount, and cable from the Trinity to the inside of the guitar affect the unplugged sound quality compared to just having the Pure Mini? Its not much bulk added but it's something. I have a nice Martin and I really care to preserve the unamplified tone. If the Trinity system additions make no difference to the unamplified acoustic quality, the Trinity sounds like the way to go for better amplified sound quality. But if they subtract anything from your unamplified tone, it seems it'd be worth it to just get the Pure Mini as the less-bulk-in-the-guitar option. Anyone have experience with this?

It’s pretty light but the cable can rattle so be sure to secure it. With some work and good external gear it can sound very good but if you’re into simplicity I would just use the Anthem SL.