Rainsong model comparison question

[SpruceTop]

I'll take the tone of a Classic Series RainSong WS-1000 over the other available recipes in the WS model. This IS the sound of a carbon guitar! The Black Ice WS is nice too if a lightshow is desired.

[jdinco]

I don't have an "in", but I know the Opus model is going away. Makes good sense.

[muser]

Thanks for the warm welcome, everyone. I've probably read every single Rainsong, Emerald, Blackbird and CA thread here on AGF, so I feel like I already kinda know all of you from your posts.

Originally Posted by kramster

Wait... what now...4 you say??

I don't know about all those new models (though I'm intrigued), but I'm definitely eager for more details about the redesigned 12th-fret X7.

Originally Posted by mikealpine

For what it's worth, I found the CH too warm. Though not muddy, it didn't give off the highs that I want to hear.

That's worrying me a bit now since I can't audition one (my local Rainsong dealer only has a CO-WS1000 in stock). As an all-hog Martin owner, I like warmth but I do value clear highs, good note separation and crisp articulation.

Originally Posted by mikealpine

I really like the tone of my H-OM, great volume, has been my main gigging acoustic because of how easy it is to own and play.

Good to know that the H-OM actually has great volume!

Originally Posted by Earl49

Muser, it sometimes helps to let us know where you are.
...

Plus the X20 tone sounds really, really good -- very warm and woody.

...

Tonally the WS-1000 classic is bigger and bolder than the OM-1000. Think D-28 versus 000-28. Both are nice, and the OM would record better via microphone, but the WS has more raw horsepower acoustically.

As I mentioned earlier, I live in Southeast Asia - Singapore, specifically. There's one Rainsong dealer, who has decent pricing. Another dealer has a Journey OF660 and Klos, but no full-sized composites. One used dealer has a pre-Peavey CA GXi that I want to try even though it's red (not low key enough for me) and pricey. And I even gave a Mcpherson dealer that I fear approaching, because even though I'm really curious about a Sable... I can't actually afford a Sable. It's great that some manufacturers now ship direct to consumers, so Emerald and Blackbird are options, but they'd be leaps of faith, and the Savoy is both on the small and pricey size for my needs and wallet.

Originally Posted by Captain Jim

Other manufacturers have taken advantage of the arm rest bevels, rounded edges, compound curve cutaways, etc to make the guitar a better fit for the (typical) human body.
...
In the 60s and 70s, I was a Gibson guy. Then an Ovation guy for 14 years. Then a series of Taylors (4 of which I still have).
...
I only mention this because of your "might actually be livable for me" comment. I could have saved a lot of money over the years if I had known about all the other options out there (wood and CF).

I only recently discovered bevelled tops, and since I can't justify buying guitars often, I'd really like my next guitar to have bevelled edges and stainless steel frets if possible, so that it will be both comfortable and truly maintenance free.

I've been an Ovation guy for... 24 years. I love the neck of my Ovation '94 Collector's Series, but have grown really irritated with the body sliding down my thigh, especially when I'm trying to play ("try" being the operative word here) some modern percussive pieces with tapped harmonics that don't allow me to grip the body securely. That and the fact that my (usually unwilling) audiences can hear me very well, but I can hardly hear myself play since the composite back hardly resonates.

Originally Posted by kramster

Welcome indeed muser...who wants to be an end user...
...
the WS is a wee bigger and a bit richer sound. Emerald X-20 is very comfy and a richer still sounding. If I had only one of the 3 I'd be a happy young man...well ok... happy used to be young man ...

Thanks, kramster! I do indeed want to go beyond musing, and get around to actually using. The GAS is real.

General consensus seeks to be that the WS adds bass and/or richness but not much extra volume. Interesting, considering the big difference in body depth. I would have expected the WS to be way louder than the OM.

[mikealpine]

Originally Posted by muser

That's worrying me a bit now since I can't audition one (my local Rainsong dealer only has a CO-WS1000 in stock). As an all-hog Martin owner, I like warmth but I do value clear highs, good note separation and crisp articulation.


Good to know that the H-OM actually has great volume!


I only recently discovered bevelled tops, and since I can't justify buying guitars often, I'd really like my next guitar to have bevelled edges and stainless steel frets if possible, so that it will be both comfortable and truly maintenance free


General consensus seeks to be that the WS adds bass and/or richness but not much extra volume. Interesting, considering the big difference in body depth. I would have expected the WS to be way louder than the OM.

Muser, did you play the CO-WS1000N2? Would love to hear your impression.

Re volume on my H-OM, mine seems pretty loud. However when I was comparing in the store, I played one of their H-OM models and it was decidedly weaker than the WS models I played. When I got I played mine, seemed much louder than the one in the store. I don’t know why. Who knows, maybe one of the WS would sound even louder in my home? Or the one at the store had dull strings?

Re beveled tips, while I’m ok without them, I have two guitars with them and love them. If that’s a factor, the X20 is great!

[mikealpine]

Originally Posted by SpruceTop

I'll take the tone of a Classic Series RainSong WS-1000 over the other available recipes in the WS model. This IS the sound of a carbon guitar! The Black Ice WS is nice too if a lightshow is desired.

When I auditioned the guitars, the Classic was the winner. Barely edged out the Black Ice. Just trying to an idea of where the CO falls in terms of warmth and clarity in comparison to both the H and the Classic. It might split the difference. I wish there was a graph that would show the expected tonal qualities of each model within each body shape. That would be very helpful.

[muser]

Originally Posted by mikealpine

Muser, did you play the CO-WS1000N2? Would love to hear your impression.



Re volume on my H-OM, mine seems pretty loud. However when I was comparing in the store, I played one of their H-OM models and it was decidedly weaker than the WS models I played. When I got I played mine, seemed much louder than the one in the store. I don’t know why. Who knows, maybe one of the WS would sound even louder in my home? Or the one at the store had dull strings?



Re beveled tips, while I’m ok without them, I have two guitars with them and love them. If that’s a factor, the X20 is great!

My bad, I just double-checked what my local Rainsong dealer had (past tense; they’ve since sold it) and it was a S-WS1000N2, not a CO-WS1000N2, and no, I didn’t play it. Darn, I was hoping to play it. I’ll have to be faster the next time their Rainsong stock comes in.

The only Rainsong’s I’ve actually played is a Classic WS about 20 years ago at a dealer in Redwood City (can’t remember the name). I assume it had an N1 neck (no truss rod). I remember being impressed with the volume, sparkling clarity and immediate response. I wanted it but couldn’t afford it back then. Who am I kidding, I can’t really afford one now, though that might not stop me actually buying one.

I’ve found that rooms can really affect one’s perception of volume. I have an old Fender F-1000 (aka Harmony H-929) parlour that seems perfectly loud in my home but is barely audible when I bring it to my brother’s house. Go figure.

I’ve never owned any guitars with beveled edges but they just seem like a great ergonomic idea.

[jdinco]

I know on my CF guitars, that strings, whether old, new or a different brand can have a big effect on volume. Not sure that was the case here, but something to consider.

[mikealpine]

Originally Posted by jdinco

I know on my CF guitars, that strings, whether old, new or a different brand can have a big effect on volume. Not sure that was the case here, but something to consider.

Thanks John. That is also what I think. My guitar has brand new strings, I have no idea how old they were on the OM I played at the store, or what brand. The acoustics of my den VS those of the store would have an impact.

[AZLiberty]

Originally Posted by jdinco

I know on my CF guitars, that strings, whether old, new or a different brand can have a big effect on volume. Not sure that was the case here, but something to consider.

I tend to agree. for whatever reason, CF guitars tend to bring out some sonic differences between strings that I simply can't hear on wooden guitars.

[Captain Jim]

Originally Posted by muser

Thanks for the warm welcome, everyone. I've probably read every single Rainsong, Emerald, Blackbird and CA thread here on AGF, so I feel like I already kinda know all of you from your posts.

I don't know about all those new models (though I'm intrigued), but I'm definitely eager for more details about the redesigned 12th-fret X7.

I only recently discovered bevelled tops, and since I can't justify buying guitars often, I'd really like my next guitar to have bevelled edges and stainless steel frets if possible, so that it will be both comfortable and truly maintenance free.

I've been an Ovation guy for... 24 years. I love the neck of my Ovation '94 Collector's Series, but have grown really irritated with the body sliding down my thigh, especially when I'm trying to play ("try" being the operative word here) some modern percussive pieces with tapped harmonics that don't allow me to grip the body securely. That and the fact that my (usually unwilling) audiences can hear me very well, but I can hardly hear myself play since the composite back hardly resonates.

Thanks, kramster! I do indeed want to go beyond musing, and get around to actually using. The GAS is real.

General consensus seeks to be that the WS adds bass and/or richness but not much extra volume. Interesting, considering the big difference in body depth. I would have expected the WS to be way louder than the OM.

Looking for the ergonomic curves, stainless steel frets, and volume... you are describing the X20.

[SpruceTop]

Originally Posted by mikealpine

When I auditioned the guitars, the Classic was the winner. Barely edged out the Black Ice. Just trying to an idea of where the CO falls in terms of warmth and clarity in comparison to both the H and the Classic. It might split the difference. I wish there was a graph that would show the expected tonal qualities of each model within each body shape. That would be very helpful.

Having owned three Classic Series WS models and one CO WS model, I recommend the Classic Series over the CO. The difference in tone isn't that great and you may love the more openness of tone of the Classic WS1000. *Also, the Classic Series isn't as subject to as much of the slight RainSong-construction-method, top-concaveness as is the CO series models--I've also owned a CO-DR1000N2. My suggestion is to go with the Classic WS1000N2, enjoy it, and put out of your mind further misgivings about your decision to do so. Let it be your carbon guitar and focus on making music with it.

*For whatever reason, most RainSong owners have either never noticed or won't admit to seeing the slight concaveness of the RainSong tops. Being a machinist/tool maker, my eye and curiosity tends to notice everything I find not quite right in a product with the way I would manufacture that product if it were my company. This doesn't mean the product isn't functional, it just means that from my perspective it isn't what I would strive for in delivering my product.

[mikealpine]

Thanks for that suggestion. I have never noticed any kind of concave look to my H-OM, but will sure look!

Most likely I will end up with a Black Ice. There are more of those available and I can get a better deal on that one, making it less expensive than the Classic. As I said, when I played both, it was a toss-up as to which I preferred so if I can get a good deal, that’s the way I’ll go.

[jonfields45]

Originally Posted by SpruceTop

*For whatever reason, most RainSong owners have either never noticed or won't admit to seeing the slight concaveness of the RainSong tops. Being a machinist/tool maker, my eye and curiosity tends to notice everything I find not quite right in a product with the way I would manufacture that product if it were my company. This doesn't mean the product isn't functional, it just means that from my perspective it isn't what I would strive for in delivering my product.

A RainSong top has no bracing and is flat with no string tension. It is weakest at the sound hole (maybe this is too obvious to state?). When the strings are brought up to tension the top distorts a bit, primarily at the sound hole, which causes concaveness. The inner and outer layers of CF are mated at the soundhole with the spacer ending about 1/2" away (this is design 101 to avoid delamination). For models without the hard Ablam rosette, there will be a slight ripple at the soundhole under string tension (more obvious on the cut-away models). Braces to change the way this looks would change the tone and if you look inside your RainSong, that same "relief route" like structure you see at the soundhole runs the perimeter of the top. Putting braces across that is not practical.

The basic "architecture" of a RainSong makes this as unavoidable as the bulge behind the bridge of a scalloped top Martin (due to heavy braces scalloped at the bridge making that the weakest point). I think it contributes strongly to the tone and projection of their guitars. I've not played every CF guitar out there, but for the ones I've tried, only the RainSongs seem to be as loud as an equivalent sized best-in-class wood guitar.

For those of us who have trained ourselves to look for early signs of trouble in a wooden X-braced guitar, we need some retraining to set expectations for different designs, and in particular CF which won't creep over time.

[SpruceTop]

Originally Posted by jonfields45

A RainSong top has no bracing and is flat with no string tension.

I've found the concaveness to be there in the top of a RainSong even when strings are removed, especially in the CO unidirectional models. As you've mentioned, this concaveness is likely due to the RainSong braceless construction method. I'm not sure how he does it but Alistair of Emerald has mentioned that he imparts a slight convex shape to his Emerald tops. This is something I wish RainSong would try to incorporate in their build process. In comparison, I've noticed Composite Acoustic tops are usually very flat across the top.

[bsman]

Originally Posted by SpruceTop

I've found the concaveness to be there in the top of a RainSong even when strings are removed, especially in the CO unidirectional models. As you've mentioned, this concaveness is likely due to the RainSong braceless construction method. I'm not sure how he does it but Alistair of Emerald has mentioned that he imparts a slight convex shape to his Emerald tops. This is something I wish RainSong would try to incorporate in their build process. In comparison, I've noticed Composite Acoustic tops are usually very flat across the top.

Funny, but when I first got my Emerald X7 I was concerned because of the visible bulge in the top in back of the bridge. About five years hence, it hasn’t moved and I’ve begun to realize that C.F. guitars can’t really be judged by the same standards as wood guitars. C.F. is a different material that responds differently than wood. FYI, my Rainsong’s top is perfectly flat. Perhaps the unidirectional top on mine responds differently than the other Rainsong construction?