Acoustic guitar preamps / mixer

knuckle · #1 10-13-2011, 07:27 AM

So I have a CA/OX with the K+K dual source SBT / Internal Mic. I have this going into a solstice and then into an equinox as in my other post and then into a mixer.

What I'm starting to believe is that I have too many things in the mix. When playing with the band, it just sounds like mud. I don't know if it's the guitar, the metal finger picks or too many things in the mix.

Do you think I'm just better off going from guitar > DI box > board rather than have all this stuff in the signal chain. I'm starting to think it's just too much stuff in the chain.

If there is anyone in the area that has a good ear, I'd love some help with the sound and to see what you think. It's perplexing to me that we have some of the best equipment, but it still sounds like crap.

But of course with the way things are setup, there's not a ton of room where we play and we're sort of on top of each other. But even alone I have not a good sound. I'm starting to think it's the guitar I have, carbon fiber.

buzzardwhiskey · #2 10-13-2011, 08:16 AM

I think you have a fun problem, and you might take the time to learn from it.

Start simply. Find a decent sized hall or room and a long guitar cord so that you can truly "be the audience". Plug your guitar directly into a nice amp and really play around with the limited sets of controls. Once you find "the best" for that set-up, go stand where you normally would and listen again to the amp (it'll sound very different).

If you sing, amplify your voice and figure out what sounds good way out there in audience land. I'm just a newby and one of the mistakes I had to learn to correct was putting my voice way too far back in the mix. Then again, stand next to the amp and hear your voice (I had a terrible time with this).

Now purposefully add in pieces of gear. What you're looking to develop is an intuitive understanding of what each really does to the sound the audience is hearing. I think this can literally take hours. We buy all this equipment and I think we fail to understand that they're like instruments we need to learn.

Anyway, have fun! And good luck!

corbetta · #3 10-13-2011, 08:46 AM

I think your problem is probably bad EQ. What sounds good for solo playing is probably not going to work with a full band. It's going to take some time, but experiment with cutting different areas of your guitar's tone until you find a sounds that works in the context. Incidentally—the bulk of the sonic information your guitar puts out is in the midrange, which happens to be the busiest chunk of the sonic spectrum in most cases when playing with a band. It's a tough act to "cut through" without getting to much of a muddy/honky sound.

YMMV.

knuckle · #4 10-13-2011, 08:51 AM

Good ideas guys. That's what I figured, that with drums and bass, it's not going to sound the best.

Joseph Hanna · #5 10-13-2011, 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by knuckle

So I have a CA/OX with the K+K dual source SBT / Internal Mic.......a solstice......an equinox....a mixer......it just sounds like mud.

I don't know if it's the guitar..... metal finger picks or too many things in the mix.....

It's perplexing to me that we have some of the best equipment, but it still sounds like crap.....I'm starting to think it's the guitar.

I mentioned this in your last post so I promise this'll be the last time I make this suggestion

It's just NOT the equipment knuckle. Look elsewhere for the source of the problem.

knuckle · #6 10-13-2011, 09:39 AM

Gotcha, I must have missed that. Lot of activity these days with sound and gear. Makes me want to just go into the woods with the guitar and forget about amps and crap.

I'm starting to get miserable with this crap.

Joseph Hanna · #7 10-13-2011, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by knuckle

I'm starting to get miserable with this crap.

I think virtually ALL of us have been through this stage. Some like the learning experience some don't. It is however a journey. It's work and commitment, trial and error, discovery and sometimes digging a rabbit hole (via purchases) so deep it's almost comical. In the end however it's 99% perspiration.

Still I tell you beyond ANY shadow of any doubt you just can't "buy" stuff and end up with a great sound. No one and I mean NO ONE in the history of great guitar sounds has ever arrived without a Titanic amount of blood, sweat and tears invested.

It takes patience and time

RustyAxe · #8 10-13-2011, 09:51 AM

I agree it's probably an EQ issue ... but ... I can't for the life of me figure out why you'd have Solstice AND and Equinox in the same signal chain. Yes, I understand the Equinox has sweepable EQ, but it wouldn't surprise if part of your issues weren't related to gain structure. If it were me, I'd go from the guitar to the Solstice to the mixer, leave the mixer EQ neutral, and EQ from the Solstice. As others have said, you'll have to experiment a bit to find your place in the overall mix.

knuckle · #9 10-13-2011, 10:07 AM

Well I bought the solstice for the blending capability.

I bought the equinox to have the ability to eq the resonators a little bit more.

However your right. Having all that stuff in the chain creates mud.
Today I'm testing out the stock CA OX piezo into a Radial DI > board and the K+K SBT > equinox > another channel on the board and it sounds a lot better.

I'm getting rid of the Solstice. To have a mic in the mix, even in the guitar, with a band, is just causing problems. So I'll blend the SBT and the UST and just try to be happy with that.

The problem with me is that my ear is too sensitive or something and I always expect pefection and do not know when to give it up. By the time I find something I like my ear is dead, then the next day it sounds like crap. It's a repetitive cycle.

The other problem is that I get virtually no feedback from the other guys, just "sounds good" or "sounds like crap" and I need a little more help than that. But I'll figure it out, I just have to remember to keep it simple.

A couple weeks ago I bought a Voice Live 2 used. Thing sounded great by myself. Absolute disaster with the band. It's now on its way to Texas

El Conquistador · #10 10-13-2011, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by knuckle

Makes me want to just go into the woods with the guitar and forget about amps and crap.

I'm starting to get miserable with this crap.

AGF's own Eric Skye has said to me: "Amplification is where the fun begins with electric guitars, and the fun ends with acoutstic guitars."

The problem with forums like this is that there is always some new wiz-bang gadget that is a must have. I have found acoustic amplification peace using the KISS principal. The advice you got earlier about plugging straight into a good amp, then seeing what else you need one piece at a time resonates with me.

I would suggest that you sit down with your guitar, and decide if it is giving you what you like to hear. Then I would plug it in to a good amp and start with only the SBT of the K&K to see if that gets you there. (Frankly, I suspect at least part of the problem in a band situation is the mic part of the K&K). Then, if still not there, add in a pre-amp, etc..But here is the most improtant part, when you get a sound you like, STOP!!!!

Good luck,
Steve

Whoops, I see you have already figured out the mic part.

knuckle · #11 10-13-2011, 10:22 AM

Yeah the dual source blending thing with the mic is a great idea, but it just doesn't work out unless your one of those singer songwriter guys playing soft music in a coffee shop full of quiet people.

That's the main problem. So that's fixed, not using it anymore, period.

lschwart · #12 10-15-2011, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by knuckle

Yeah the dual source blending thing with the mic is a great idea, but it just doesn't work out unless your one of those singer songwriter guys playing soft music in a coffee shop full of quiet people.

That's the main problem. So that's fixed, not using it anymore, period.

Good move in a band situation, knucle. Also, if you mixer has a high pass filter on it, try using that on the vocal and acoustic guitar channels. Let the drums and the bass take care of the low end. This helped clear up our band mix considerably. Might help for you, too.

Louis

dcopper · #13 10-15-2011, 03:42 PM

You really have to be careful when you have too many active components in your signal chain. It creates gain staging issues. Start with a good signal from your guitar, then maintain that signal throughout your system. I used to use several items that have active gains and I found it difficult to control and very difficult to maintain the integrity of the original signal from the guitar. Maybe if you go into the blender, then run your eq into a channel insert if that is available. Always start with your signal flat though. It helps to maintain the original tone of your guitar. You can eq at the end. The problem you have often in too many components with active gains, is that the gain tends to creep up on you, often adding noise, etc. into your signal that eventually gives you a fairly muddy signal. The less gain staging, the easier it is to manage your tone.
Good luck,
davidc

Brackett Instruments · #14 10-15-2011, 03:49 PM

A SBT/mic combo isn't ideal for a band setting with drums and bass. A UST or magnetic pickup would work better in that setting.

knuckle · #15 10-15-2011, 04:23 PM

Mud is the word and I'm no longer using the mic in the guitar with the band. I have multiple options though. This guitar has 3 sound sources, stock LR baggs with it's own preamp and jack and the stereo jack, wired to the mic and the K+K minis. I'm just either using the mini's now or the UST or blend both.

Well I tried out the headway preamp I had. Never tried it as it doesn't provide phantom to the mic for blending capability. But the thing is unreal. I'm just using it with the SBT K+K minis and it sounds awesome. So I tired it with the stock LR baggs piezo in channel 2 with the SBT in channel 1 with two cables and even that sounds good.

Of course it does not help that I face the drummer when we practice, we don't have a lot of room in the basement here. but I'm going to face him to the right of me next time we play.

So I'm going to sell the K+K Solstice and Equinox.