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  #16  
Old 07-30-2014, 12:08 PM
bohemian bohemian is offline
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BTW my first archtop was a mint L-50.. with original tweed case and original bill of sale from a shop in Arizona.

I liked that guitar very much and miss it.

I sold it because my flat top playing buddies mocked my choice.. those were the days of insecurity.. around 1965... I learned my lesson.

Stuart..

Do you think it is possible to produce a basic, no frills archtop for under $4k...

I would think making a batch of 12 might do it. Economy of scale etc.

I seem to recall a recent article about Greven who made a statement that he could build a guitar in 20 something hours.. ???
I believe it may have been the last issue of "Fretboard Journal"

I'll check.




PS .. dog is ok.

Last edited by bohemian; 07-30-2014 at 12:30 PM.
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  #17  
Old 07-30-2014, 12:28 PM
mr. beaumont mr. beaumont is offline
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What I like:

Modern designs, but nothing silly with the f holes
Low bling...pearl, abalone, gold=snore
Smaller bodies, shallower depths
Finish over binding
Simplicity--one pickup, two knobs
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  #18  
Old 07-31-2014, 11:03 AM
StuartDay StuartDay is offline
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Bohemian,

Glad the dog is ok.

I really dont think a handmade archtop guitar with a carved top and back can be made for under $4,000 regardless of how simple or conservative it is. That doesn't mean I'm not willing to entertain the idea and try to put some numbers together but my experience is telling me no.
Its possible, if the next few years go well for me and I begin to get a consistent number of orders per year which not only sustains my business but allows me some growth then I COULD at that point start thinking about creating a branch of my company devoted to making more affordable instruments. That would require an employee or two. At this point though, no, I dont think it's really possible for me to make a hand made archtop for under $4,000

Also, the question isn't if I can make a guitar in 20 hours… The question is can I make one of my guitars in 20 hours. the answer is absolutely not. If you want a couple pieces of wood with 6 strings on it that can hold tension, yea I can make that in 20 hours but I wouldn't put my name on it. It takes me anywhere from 150-200 hours to build one of my instruments.

What I want to try to do is incorporate the feedback I've gotten here, possibly design an instrument that I can reasonably sell for less than my current base price to fulfill the desire that everyone here has voiced but without completely abandoning my core philosophy and vision. I mean, I am who I am and I build my instruments. I can try, within that perimeter, to do the best I can but $,4000 and under I think is pretty unrealistic for me at this time.
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  #19  
Old 07-31-2014, 11:49 AM
Steve DeRosa Steve DeRosa is offline
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Something like this is close to what I envisioned:

http://www.archtop.com/ac_09fosterBS7.html

Full-depth, non-cut, all-acoustic, and less exotic materials/construction, however (that hand-carved one-piece hog back and hand-split top must have contributed significantly to the cost) - but I think it makes the point...
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  #20  
Old 07-31-2014, 02:05 PM
bohemian bohemian is offline
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Stuart...

Re: your vision, given your background, experience, philosophy etc..

what do you want to build ?

I personally have no interest in a "me" guitar... personalized affectations.
I am a devotee of simplicity, playability, and tone.
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  #21  
Old 07-31-2014, 03:28 PM
StuartDay StuartDay is offline
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Default Final thoughts

First of all, in my last comment where I was responding to building an instrument in 20 hours I realized reading over what I said that I didn't say what I was trying to say very well and I could easily be misunderstood.

So before anyone else mentions it, I did not intend for my statement to sound as if it was a commentary on any other luthiers work or anything like that. It was simply about me and what I can or can't do. I just want that to be clear. I could have said it more tactfully

To answer your question Bohemian,
I simply want to be the best hand-built, small-batch luthier I can possibly be. I want to build instruments that stand alone in their style, tone, and playability. I want to pay my respect to the classics and all those great builders that came before me by incorporating what I believe they did very well while having the freedom to make my own decisions based on my knowledge. And I just need to build at the same level of quality, craftsmanship and tone as I became accustomed to building at while I was with Tom Ribbecke. Anything less doesn't feel right to me. That means flawless frets, spot on miters, great finish work, great glue joints, cleanliness balanced tone, good acoustic volume etc…

When I first started working for Ribbecke I was coming right out of an apprenticeship at the Galloup school of lutherie. most of my experience was with flat top guitars. I liked Tom's work, particularly in the blue guitar collection, and I needed a job so… I got very lucky in being offered a place in his private shop. But I wasn't in love with archtops yet because i didn't really get them.

About 2 years after working for Tom they really clicked for me and I just fell in love. I think part of that transition for me happened because Tom doesn't make exclusively traditional new york style archtops which, depending on what your trying to do with them, can be limited in their tonal pallet. Tom, instead, was pushing the archtop to retain the separation of chorus, sustain, and correct envelope but while tying to create a broader tonal pallet and more bass response.

Because of my experience with Tom, his vision, philosophy and goals I developed a belief that I feel is inline with Jimmy Daquisto, which is that
archtop guitars are not just jazz instruments. And to take that a step further, archtop guitars can be archtop guitars without the tonal limitations that have traditionally existed in them. That, at my core, is what drives me most when I build archtops.

Being a luthier, and particularly an archtop maker, is a tightrope walk. The instrument has historically significant and unique characteristics which create a traditionalist mindset. And there is nothing wrong with that on the surface. Who doesn't love the classics like the L-5? nobody. And as a guitar maker, I want to make what players and collectors want to buy. If that is spartan appointments, a workhorse club guitar, or an ornate piece of art… I get satisfaction, in different ways, from all that.
But at the same time its my job to push the instrument further than my predecessors did. Henry Ford said if he had asked "the people" what they wanted they would have said "faster horses".

To me, its not about the gold hardware or inlay work. those are just aesthetic details… they have their place, but can be used tastelessly. I do enjoy, as an artisan, the opportunity to create interesting things because I love the process of problem solving and pushing my skills to their limits. But I don't want to do that on every instrument because its the tone, playability, and functionality that are truly important and make the instrument worth anything. To put it in numbers, I would be very happy if 80% of my instruments were being played nightly in smoky clubs while 20% were hanging on the wall of a collectors music room.

What its about though is being able to, in those arenas, use the knowledge that generations of luthiers have accumulated, to improve the instrument in objective ways (i.e. energy efficiency, speed of transfer, balance of frequency response, vibration of the top plate, balance in tonal pallet and volume etc…) while giving people what they want stylistically, and creating my own footprint in the wonderful community of American Lutherie.

In addition to all this I also think its worth noting that from an ethical and philosophical standpoint, I'm not a big fan of mass production of anything. One of the fundamental reasons that pushed me to lutherie in the first place was that I wanted to do something in my life that was antithetical to cheap, outsourced, mass produced, cookiecutter production of consumer goods.

So, thats a nut shell I guess of my vision and philosophy. how it relates to our discussion leading up to here is that at a certain point, the price of the instrument becomes prohibitive to these goals and forces a luthier to make certain compromises that they might not want to make.

I started this thread to get an idea of what some of you archtop enthusiasts were looking for out of guys like me. Stylistically I see that many of you prefer basic, elegant simplicity. Thats crucial information for me and I take it heart in a big way and I can basically promise that that is exactly what will be coming out of my shop over the next year or so (unless someone orders something covered in gold )

The other thing I got was that many of you feel the prices of hand made guitars are prohibitive for you. I totally understand that, and as I've said I will try to design, in the next year, an instrument that I can offer at a more competitive price on the low end of the scale. How low… I have no idea. I doubt I can get it lower than $5,000 but… as long as I dont feel that I am compromising on everything I said above, my ego isn't invested in my pricing. if I can offer something for less than $5,000 that I feel good about… I will.

I really want to thank you all for your time, your feedback, support and ideas. Its very helpful to me. I hope that someday I can work with a few of you and that you guys enjoy my work over the next few years.

Steve DeRosa, you have inspired me to write an article about the relevance of the arch-top guitar in contemporary music. I'll post a thread on that at some-point and ask again for feedback. I've been in this industry now for about 9 years and my favorite thing is still the people and relationships. I'm glad to be able to connect with all of you like this.

Thank you,

All the best.
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  #22  
Old 07-31-2014, 03:40 PM
louparte louparte is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StuartDay View Post
Hey everyone,

I’ve been reading an interesting book lately about how technology has been changing business models in various industries. One of the things that caught my attention was the concept of co-creation. It’s been very prevalent in the tech industries and I wont go into detail but basically it is when designers or creators of a product bring the core demographic into the design process.

It got me thinking a bit about my business model. This seems like a great site that offers that kind of co-creative potential. I’m not sure yet how I’d like to integrate that into the way I already work but a good starting point would be to ask a few simple questions

What do you guys want to see in hand made arch-top guitars?
Hog back and sides, deeper body, floating magnetic pick-up. Sound-holes. Modern design aesthetics.

Quote:
What trends are you tired of or what cool things have you seen that you’d like to see more of?

Tired of inadequate depth and very thin F-holes.
Tired of traditional. I like some of the new designs for
arch-tops.

Quote:
Are you fans of natural or color finishes?

Not generally.

Quote:
Tell me what you love or what you don’t love in the world of hand-made arch top guitars.
Sunburst guitars and red guitars. Natural? Not so much. I love them.
Quote:
As a professional luthier building my name and business I want to know what buyers and enthusiasts think. There are no wrong answers. Any input that comes to mind is appreciated.

It’s my personal belief (after building world class Arch-tops now for close to 8 years) that the instrument has a lot of room to grow. Both in it’s structural design and sonically. But that’s from my perspective as a luthier. Perhaps your opinions differ. Tell me about it.

Hope everyone is well

Thanks!
Stuart Day
Stuartdayguitars.com
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Guitars: (2007) big Vietnamese archtop; (1997) Guild F65ce,
(1988) Guild D60, (1972) Guild D25, two other Vietnamese flat-tops and one classical.

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  #23  
Old 07-31-2014, 03:41 PM
bohemian bohemian is offline
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Well spoken.

I hope you can realize your aspirations.. you appear to have what it takes.


Best of luck.

So now.. what about a basic no frills, traditionally based model. model ? : ).

How do you see that configured given your mindset and the input of others.


How about taking up a challenge make a $4k guitar without compromise ?
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  #24  
Old 07-31-2014, 07:04 PM
Silly Moustache Silly Moustache is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StuartDay View Post
Bohemian,

Sounds like you enjoy the heyday of archtops and want them to stay that way. My guess is your views are representative of most archtop enthusiasts. The next few I release are going to definitely be more in this vein of instruments. Clean, conservative and player focused.

Thanks so much for the input. it's very helpful
Cheers
This is me too Stuart,
I am a flat-top picker but sought to learn sme "American songbook" material and western swing style rhythm stylings.
I am very trad in regard to stylings and believe that the acoustic guitar designs reached their peak by 1931.

Probably why I play12 fret flat-tops -and if they don't look like Martins - they don't look right!

The first "good" arch-top I got was (and still is) an Eastman AR805e - and it really is a good instrument, but what I really wanted was an L-5 ('25-'29).

I settled for a '34 L-7 - 16" f-holes etc.

It occurs to me that this guitar was made for popular music of the time. Seemingly most who want to play arch-tops want play music from the '20s to '40s and so the guitars should look "trad".
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  #25  
Old 07-31-2014, 08:09 PM
StuartDay StuartDay is offline
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Bohemian,

I'd have to really give it a lot of thought. Right now I have 4 instruments on my bench which I need to wrap up so I dont really have the time to sit down and start designing. Once I get these instruments out the door I'll have some time to think about it.

But I'd take my cues from the late 20's L-5. Unbound, non cut, probably natural blonde.
I'll keep you all posted
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  #26  
Old 08-01-2014, 07:20 AM
Steve DeRosa Steve DeRosa is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StuartDay View Post
...probably natural blonde...
That's going to mean fancier (and more expensive) woods, and that's why I first suggested a satin finish black top/chocolate back to keep the price way down; without compromising your construction standards in any way, think "cheap" here in terms of both materials and cosmetics - although a PRS-style edge reveal to simulate top binding might be a nice, no-cost touch...
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  #27  
Old 08-01-2014, 10:19 AM
StuartDay StuartDay is offline
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Steve, thats true. You're right. Although we will see… I generally dont make finishing decisions until I can see the wood in shape and everything.

I'll keep you all posted on what comes of all this.
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  #28  
Old 08-01-2014, 04:21 PM
Archtop Guy Archtop Guy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StuartDay View Post
First of all, in my last comment where I was responding to building an instrument in 20 hours I realized reading over what I said that I didn't say what I was trying to say very well and I could easily be misunderstood.

So before anyone else mentions it, I did not intend for my statement to sound as if it was a commentary on any other luthiers work or anything like that. It was simply about me and what I can or can't do. I just want that to be clear. I could have said it more tactfully

To answer your question Bohemian,
I simply want to be the best hand-built, small-batch luthier I can possibly be. I want to build instruments that stand alone in their style, tone, and playability. I want to pay my respect to the classics and all those great builders that came before me by incorporating what I believe they did very well while having the freedom to make my own decisions based on my knowledge. And I just need to build at the same level of quality, craftsmanship and tone as I became accustomed to building at while I was with Tom Ribbecke. Anything less doesn't feel right to me. That means flawless frets, spot on miters, great finish work, great glue joints, cleanliness balanced tone, good acoustic volume etc…

When I first started working for Ribbecke I was coming right out of an apprenticeship at the Galloup school of lutherie. most of my experience was with flat top guitars. I liked Tom's work, particularly in the blue guitar collection, and I needed a job so… I got very lucky in being offered a place in his private shop. But I wasn't in love with archtops yet because i didn't really get them.

About 2 years after working for Tom they really clicked for me and I just fell in love. I think part of that transition for me happened because Tom doesn't make exclusively traditional new york style archtops which, depending on what your trying to do with them, can be limited in their tonal pallet. Tom, instead, was pushing the archtop to retain the separation of chorus, sustain, and correct envelope but while tying to create a broader tonal pallet and more bass response.

Because of my experience with Tom, his vision, philosophy and goals I developed a belief that I feel is inline with Jimmy Daquisto, which is that
archtop guitars are not just jazz instruments. And to take that a step further, archtop guitars can be archtop guitars without the tonal limitations that have traditionally existed in them. That, at my core, is what drives me most when I build archtops.

Being a luthier, and particularly an archtop maker, is a tightrope walk. The instrument has historically significant and unique characteristics which create a traditionalist mindset. And there is nothing wrong with that on the surface. Who doesn't love the classics like the L-5? nobody. And as a guitar maker, I want to make what players and collectors want to buy. If that is spartan appointments, a workhorse club guitar, or an ornate piece of art… I get satisfaction, in different ways, from all that.
But at the same time its my job to push the instrument further than my predecessors did. Henry Ford said if he had asked "the people" what they wanted they would have said "faster horses".

To me, its not about the gold hardware or inlay work. those are just aesthetic details… they have their place, but can be used tastelessly. I do enjoy, as an artisan, the opportunity to create interesting things because I love the process of problem solving and pushing my skills to their limits. But I don't want to do that on every instrument because its the tone, playability, and functionality that are truly important and make the instrument worth anything. To put it in numbers, I would be very happy if 80% of my instruments were being played nightly in smoky clubs while 20% were hanging on the wall of a collectors music room.

What its about though is being able to, in those arenas, use the knowledge that generations of luthiers have accumulated, to improve the instrument in objective ways (i.e. energy efficiency, speed of transfer, balance of frequency response, vibration of the top plate, balance in tonal pallet and volume etc…) while giving people what they want stylistically, and creating my own footprint in the wonderful community of American Lutherie.

In addition to all this I also think its worth noting that from an ethical and philosophical standpoint, I'm not a big fan of mass production of anything. One of the fundamental reasons that pushed me to lutherie in the first place was that I wanted to do something in my life that was antithetical to cheap, outsourced, mass produced, cookiecutter production of consumer goods.

So, thats a nut shell I guess of my vision and philosophy. how it relates to our discussion leading up to here is that at a certain point, the price of the instrument becomes prohibitive to these goals and forces a luthier to make certain compromises that they might not want to make.

I started this thread to get an idea of what some of you archtop enthusiasts were looking for out of guys like me. Stylistically I see that many of you prefer basic, elegant simplicity. Thats crucial information for me and I take it heart in a big way and I can basically promise that that is exactly what will be coming out of my shop over the next year or so (unless someone orders something covered in gold )

The other thing I got was that many of you feel the prices of hand made guitars are prohibitive for you. I totally understand that, and as I've said I will try to design, in the next year, an instrument that I can offer at a more competitive price on the low end of the scale. How low… I have no idea. I doubt I can get it lower than $5,000 but… as long as I dont feel that I am compromising on everything I said above, my ego isn't invested in my pricing. if I can offer something for less than $5,000 that I feel good about… I will.

I really want to thank you all for your time, your feedback, support and ideas. Its very helpful to me. I hope that someday I can work with a few of you and that you guys enjoy my work over the next few years.

Steve DeRosa, you have inspired me to write an article about the relevance of the arch-top guitar in contemporary music. I'll post a thread on that at some-point and ask again for feedback. I've been in this industry now for about 9 years and my favorite thing is still the people and relationships. I'm glad to be able to connect with all of you like this.

Thank you,

All the best.
Most of that should be on your website. And I'm looking forward to your article!
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  #29  
Old 08-01-2014, 05:41 PM
bohemian bohemian is offline
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"Most of that should be on your website"

B i n g o !

I find the web site..
"problematic".
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  #30  
Old 08-01-2014, 07:19 PM
StuartDay StuartDay is offline
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"problematic"? How so?

I designed it myself and really… am not a website designer. I had just moved across the country and built a shop so I didn't really have the budget to get a pro to make it for me. I did my best but know it can be a lot better.

What did you find problematic?
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