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Old 03-05-2013, 04:18 AM
DarkestDreaming DarkestDreaming is offline
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Default Not happy with microphone capture

Hi dear friends,

I have just recently recorded a tune. I recorded my Maestro Madagascar Rosewood guitar with a pair of Rode NT-5s matched pair in XY position and I am not pleased with the recorded sound. It lacks lustre, and doesn't seem true to the instrument. Here is the downloadable raw file:

https://soundcloud.com/#iankafye-lam...ob-raw-capture


Here is also a link to the finished product, brought up to level, with a dash of reverb:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWOLd3brNcQ


was wondering if any of the seasoned recordists on this forum can help me figure out what the problem is. I have experimented mic placement, room treatment, different rooms, miking techniques, preamps, pickup blend etc and this has **** near drove me crazy.
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Old 03-05-2013, 06:56 AM
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Bob Womack Bob Womack is offline
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Hi, dreams,

That was a very nice performance.

Let me teach you a concept in microphone behavior called "angles of incidence." While manufacturers will often post a single polar plot for the frequency response of a mic, a directional microphone's rejection pattern isn't the same at all frequencies. Each frequency range has its own angle of incidence, or effective distance off-axis, before it becomes rejected. Bass and lower mid frequencies often survive the rejection attempts by the manufacturer the best. As a result, with most mics, as you go off-axis you will begin to hear less-than flat response and possibly some odd resonances. Often, the cheaper the mic, the odder the response off-axis.

Looking at your array, I can tell you that at the short distance between your guitar and the mics, you are off-axis in the vertical plain, added to the intentional off-axis of your capsule orientation. There's a pretty strong chance that the odd resonances are a combination of the sum of your off-axis cancellations and the fact that you appear to have your array horizontally pointed fairly near the sound hole, the virtual home of strange resonances in a guitar.

I suggest you try moving your array more out towards the joint of neck and body and vertically down onto a plain with the strings. Once there, you may want to rotate the array 90 degrees so the two mics are vertical, so that you don't have more bass in one and less in the other. Something like this, but using your capsule arrangement:



I hope that helps a little.

Take care and have fun,

Bob
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Old 03-05-2013, 07:40 AM
DarkestDreaming DarkestDreaming is offline
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Hi Bob thanks for your reply..
i think there's some perspective distortion in the video, because IIRC the mics are actually parallel to the foor, as well as pointing somewhere near the neck joint, perhaps at the 14th to 16th fret. If anything, I think it was my camera that is slighly off axis, and at a diagonal angle to me, as the mics would be blocking me and the guitar otherwise..


Are you suggesting that i flip the xy 90 degrees so it essentially looks like top and bottom as opposed to Left and right? I have never tried this before.. seems interesting, i will try it out.


I am still not clear about your off axis explanation.. is it that high frequencies tend to get rejected more when off axis... and the result of that is a less brighter pickup of the sound? How else does this affect the sound... you mentioned odd resonances.. and how do i counter them.. i usually just run a quick check to see if my mics are not pointing at some point that is away from the general sound source..
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Old 03-05-2013, 07:43 AM
Scott Whigham Scott Whigham is offline
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Great song, beautiful playing - I thoroughly enjoyed that.

I think a lot of the "lacks luster" can just be "solved" with EQ. Here's a quick mix I did of the first part that, to me, doesn't sound as though it lacks lustre. I'd imagine the instrument sounds very much like this:

http://soundcloud.com/scott-whigham/darkestdreamingmix

(The WAV file sounds much different than the streamed track so download it if you can)

That's something that I could listen to all day. It pulls a little to the left (on my system) but that's okay.

So I'd be happy with the general tone - but then, wait a minute, what just happened? It breaks down right at around 0:22-0:31 (in the SoundCloud link I posted). Did you do something strange to the mixing? It's like there are two copies that are different times (i.e. 15ms apart or something).

The hard strumming parts also have trouble. That's where, to my ears, it has the most oddities (from a recording perspective). And so I start wondering, "Is it mic position, or is he moving while he plays?" I then watched the video and it doesn't appear that's the case.

All in all, it's a wonderful base sound. I don't know what's causing that time delay feel though.

Last edited by Scott Whigham; 03-05-2013 at 08:14 AM.
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Old 03-05-2013, 07:52 AM
DarkestDreaming DarkestDreaming is offline
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Scott,

I cant seem to hear the artifacts that you're talking about.. is it the one i uploaded on Soundcloud or Youtube?

Oh yes, and you have very keen ears Scott. The loud parts have actually been mildly compressed and limited.. As you can see the song has a very large dynamic range and i tried to tame it somewhat so that the softer parts are up to a decent level as well. Is the said oddities present in the raw track? (those are uncompressed and non limited)

Last edited by DarkestDreaming; 03-05-2013 at 07:58 AM.
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Old 03-05-2013, 08:12 AM
Scott Whigham Scott Whigham is offline
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The time delay/issues are in the SC track you uploaded (that I then downloaded, mixed, and uploaded a copy of). On the SC link I posted, listen to the section from 0:22 to 0:31 and listen for "two copies" of the same thing. It almost sounds like a reverb but isn't quite a reverb/echo.

http://soundcloud.com/scott-whigham/darkestdreamingmix
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Old 03-05-2013, 08:22 AM
DarkestDreaming DarkestDreaming is offline
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Scott,

two of the strings are playing the same note, made possible by the alternate tuning, so it sounds like a flam, but essentially it is rapidly playing the same note on two different strings.. is that what you are referring to?
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Old 03-05-2013, 08:29 AM
Scott Whigham Scott Whigham is offline
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Ahhh - that makes sense then. Yes, it's a weird "effect" for sure - totally took me out of the space when it happened. I couldn't figure out what was causing that!
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Old 03-05-2013, 09:14 AM
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It sounds pretty good to me and natural sounding, especially for an XY recording which are usually more phasey sounding. With what you have in the recording you could boost the low frequencies a couple of decibels in the 80 hz range or so to warm up those low notes. Also you might find another reverb that fills out the sound some more yet remains clean.
In general I would work more with spaced pair mic'ing - you will get a fuller sound.
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Old 03-05-2013, 09:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkestDreaming View Post
Hi Bob thanks for your reply..
i think there's some perspective distortion in the video, because IIRC the mics are actually parallel to the foor, as well as pointing somewhere near the neck joint, perhaps at the 14th to 16th fret. If anything, I think it was my camera that is slighly off axis, and at a diagonal angle to me, as the mics would be blocking me and the guitar otherwise..
It looks as if they are two or three inches above the neck joint. They do look parallel to the floor, but set too high.
Quote:
Are you suggesting that i flip the xy 90 degrees so it essentially looks like top and bottom as opposed to Left and right? I have never tried this before.. seems interesting, i will try it out.
Exactly.
Quote:
I am still not clear about your off axis explanation.. is it that high frequencies tend to get rejected more when off axis... and the result of that is a less brighter pickup of the sound? How else does this affect the sound... you mentioned odd resonances.. and how do i counter them.. i usually just run a quick check to see if my mics are not pointing at some point that is away from the general sound source..
When you get a single polar pattern from the manufacturer, it is usually either an average of the plots of the mic over all frequencies or a plot at the frequency where the mic's pattern looks the best. If you look at the spectrum of the mic from 20hz to 20khz and do polar plots at various frequencies, you will see that the mic begins rejecting a different angles at different frequencies. It can be kind of hilarious, sometimes, with asymmetrical patterns showing up, etc. But the main takeaway is watching the variance of response against frequency to see if there will be a penalty in frequency response for being too far off axis. For example, a result, with some mics, as you go off mic you loose high end and some mids but the bass remains solid until you get off axis by something like 110'. Based on capsule resonance and the variance of off-axis response per frequency you can get "wolf" zones where frequencies jump out. Your recording sounded a little like that. It is a little like the opposite of comb-filtering. There were harmonic resonance points where I heard unnatural boost. Scott has identified some of these and reduced them, by the way.

Bob
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Old 03-05-2013, 09:26 AM
DarkestDreaming DarkestDreaming is offline
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Hey Rick,

I have an extensive collection of sound clips all done with various miking techniques that i could possibly do with my pair of rodes. They come with an interchangeable OMNI capsule so here's so far what i have done:

1. xy
2. spaced pair (omni and cardioid)
3. ORTF

Tried them in various placements, distances and environments as well. I'm not very happy with results of all of it. The reason that i posted the XY one is that it has the least variables, so its easier to diagnose, and i don't want to send you guys on a wild goose chase either.

The recording sounds fine to you as well? Reason i post this is I have AB-ed the track against some other tracks done by others using the NT5 (the reason i bought them), some other clean unedited tracks such as Doug Youngs cheap mic AT2020 take and then some others. My recordings seem to come up short for the most part.. After matching volume etc. there seems to be a very 'hollow' or 'trash can' kinda sound. Timbres are hard to explain so you'll forgive me for these vague definitions
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Old 03-05-2013, 09:36 AM
DarkestDreaming DarkestDreaming is offline
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Bob,

Yes, the mic is a few inches higher than the neck joint. I did it in this video so that it doesnt obstruct the guitar. In this case it is a few inches higher than I normally would put it. I raise it somewhat to make sure it stays off the soundhole boom, but in this case its a little higher than that as well. I have some other takes that is not limited by the video constraints. Would you like me to post that?


So as I mic up, I should pay attention to this 'wolf' frequencies and frequency oddities? I always monitor on my headphones prior to commiting to record, but truth be told, a lot of what i hear sounds really different coming out through the speakers so its mostly guess work and translating from the headphone's 'image'. How do you normally monitor it? This is of course me in the same room as my speakers because that is my one and only work room for mixing and recording, so i cant have my speakers on
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Old 03-05-2013, 09:37 AM
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rick-slo rick-slo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkestDreaming View Post
Hey Rick,

I have an extensive collection of sound clips all done with various miking techniques that i could possibly do with my pair of rodes. They come with an interchangeable OMNI capsule so here's so far what i have done:

1. xy
2. spaced pair (omni and cardioid)
3. ORTF

Tried them in various placements, distances and environments as well. I'm not very happy with results of all of it. The reason that i posted the XY one is that it has the least variables, so its easier to diagnose, and i don't want to send you guys on a wild goose chase either.

The recording sounds fine to you as well? Reason i post this is I have AB-ed the track against some other tracks done by others using the NT5 (the reason i bought them), some other clean unedited tracks such as Doug Youngs cheap mic AT2020 take and then some others. My recordings seem to come up short for the most part.. After matching volume etc. there seems to be a very 'hollow' or 'trash can' kinda sound. Timbres are hard to explain so you'll forgive me for these vague definitions
Ditch the omni for that application. Use two cardioids. XY often does sound " very 'hollow' or 'trash can'", although consistenly very 'hollow' or 'trash can'. .
Of course people's results may vary but that has been my experience in my recording space.
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Old 03-05-2013, 09:44 AM
DarkestDreaming DarkestDreaming is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Womack View Post
When you get a single polar pattern from the manufacturer, it is usually either an average of the plots of the mic over all frequencies or a plot at the frequency where the mic's pattern looks the best. If you look at the spectrum of the mic from 20hz to 20khz and do polar plots at various frequencies, you will see that the mic begins rejecting a different angles at different frequencies. It can be kind of hilarious, sometimes, with asymmetrical patterns showing up, etc. But the main takeaway is watching the variance of response against frequency to see if there will be a penalty in frequency response for being too far off axis. For example, a result, with some mics, as you go off mic you loose high end and some mids but the bass remains solid until you get off axis by something like 110'. Based on capsule resonance and the variance of off-axis response per frequency you can get "wolf" zones where frequencies jump out. Your recording sounded a little like that. It is a little like the opposite of comb-filtering. There were harmonic resonance points where I heard unnatural boost. Scott has identified some of these and reduced them, by the way.

Bob

Bob, is the OMNI mic affected by this off-axis response oddities as well, since there is no 'axis' to speak of?

Rick,
If i don't use the omnis, and dont do the xy, the setup that works best for you is a spaced pair? I have some clips of me on those as well, sounds different but still kinda dismal. Should i upload those?
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Old 03-05-2013, 09:58 AM
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Use directional microphones if you are doing xy. I also suggest directional mikes for other mike placements also. Omni mikes sound relatively clinical, there is no proximity effect to play with, and too many of the room reflections play in. If you have an absolute ideal recording space things could be different.
Post another clip or two. Also post a link to someone's clip that has the sound you like.
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