Is There An Easier Way?

[Rick Shepherd]

I am having a very difficult time, and I need some advice. I have been trying to add outboard effects to my recordings, but it appears to be a monumental task.

I have the Profire 610 interface, which also uses their DSP mixer software to control the signal routing for the device.

I downloaded Reaper for evaluation, and set it up to route the outboard effects signal into the mix. For example:

1.) track#1 - guitar track, with send to track#2
2.) track #2 - receives the dry signal from track #1, with outboard effect signal added.

So I finally got that figured out, but now I ran into another problem: For some reason, I still get signal input into my effects box, even though the hardware send volume for effects is turned all the way down. So, now I need to figure out where that is coming from, maybe from the settings for the Profire 610, their DSP Mixer software. It appears that the DSP Mixer is confusing the issue for me.

Additionally, I can't figure out how to imprint, or combine the effects with the dry guitar, and output it as a wav file or burn to CD. Reaper does not seem to allow me to do this, at least not easily. Why does this all have to be so freakin difficult?

Is there a different interface that I should be using to make this process easier, or different software that would just speak to me as a normal layperson? I just want to record a few tracks, then add outboard effects to each track, then output the file to an audio cd or flash drive as a wav file or mp3.

Should I buy an outboard firewire mixer and connect the outboard effects box to that, then into my MacBook Pro via firewire? I don't want to have to deal with this friggin DSP mixer, I just want to do it all in Reaper or whatever software is best for recording!

[moon]

I just had a look at the Profire 610 manual and I think I've got it sussed.

(1) Open the Profire control panel software and go to the mixer tabs screen. Select the main output tab "Analog Out 1/2". The mix defined in this tab goes to the first headphone socket as well as to outputs 1 and 2. Your monitors are (presumably) plugged in to 1 & 2.

(2) Zero faders 1 to 6 (the inputs). You're not zeroing the audio input signal received by the DAW (I think...!) just taking the audio input out of the monitoring mix. We'll listen to the output from the DAW instead.

(3) The DAW output will almost certainly be on "software returns" 1 & 2 (they might be named differently in the DAW software, maybe "system out 1" and "system out 2", or "audio out 1" etc). Almost all audio software should just connect to 1 & 2 automatically without you having to do anything - but have a quick check in Reaper.

(4) Back in the Profire mixer, software returns 1 & 2 are numbered 7 & 8 along the bottom of the screen. Why? Because it's more confusing that way I guess. Anyway, turn these two faders up to -5db or -6db or so. You don't want anything to clip here (or anywhere) so adjust them later as necessary. Also, pan each channel hard left and hard right respectively. I think there's a stereo link button you can click to lock the faders together. Different levels can mess up your stereo image.

(5) Turn all the other software returns down to zero ie software returns 3-10, cunningly numbered 9-16 along the bottom of the screen.

(6) Set the analogue output fader on the far right to about -5db / -6db. You can fine tune that later if you need to.

(7) Have a quick check to see if anything which should be hot has been muted by mistake (the "M" buttons). Save this setting, if there is a save command. It might just automatically remember your settings without saving.

So that's the first tab. This is the main monitoring mix. Everything on PCM 1 & 2 - ie the computer's normal stereo output - is sent to the Profire outputs 1 & 2 (so I hope that's where your monitors are connected). A copy is also sent to the first headphone socket.

Note that you can either monitor the DAW output (as here) or the raw audio inputs but never the two together because there will be a slight delay due to latency and it'll sound weird. That's why I zero'd the input faders earlier in step (2). Ask me more about that later if you want.

Now, we'll set up the aux send.

(8) Click on the next tab, "Analog out 3/4". This defines the mix sent to outputs 3 & 4 and the second headphone socket.

(9) Zero faders (or click the mute buttons) on everything except the Profire input where you've DI'd your guitar. Set the guitar input to about -5db/-6db. Pan centre.

(10) Set the master volume (Analog output, far right) to about -5db/-6db as well.

(11) Double check nothing which should be hot is muted and save this setting, if ...etc etc

We're done

The clean guitar is coming in on audio input 1 (or whatever it is) and has also been patched to Profire outputs 3 & 4. Connect the Lexicon line ins to Profire outputs 3 & 4, and the Lexicon line outs to the Profire line ins.

In your DAW, you'll find the dry, mono guitar signal on "audio input 1" or "system input 1" (or whatever it's called) and the stereo reverb on inputs 3 & 4 (I think). Pan them hard left and right.

This lets you record wet and dry tracks separately as you play. Try it out first and, if it works, we can set something up to overdub the wet signal after the fact, if you want to tweak the effect.

Honestly, it's a hell of a lot simpler than it sounds. It's just the software which makes it seem hard.

[Rick Shepherd]

moon,

Thanks very much for this! Here is what I have done up to this point:

- I have the PCM92 connected to the Profire's i/o's 3 and 4.

- Yes, my monitors are connected to line outs 1 and 2.

- In my DAW, I have track 1 which is my recorded guitar track.

The Profire DSP mixer is set as follows:

- Analog Out 1/2 Tab: I have the Analog Out faders are turned up. The only other faders I have turned up are the Software Returns 1 and 2, which also correspond to 7 and 8 somethings(whatever that means!). When I turn up the faders for the software returns, I hear the guitar on track 1 in my DAW.

- Analog Out 3/4 Tab: Analog Out faders are turned up. I also have Software Returns 1 and 2, which also correspond to 7 and 8 somethings, turned up, which gives me the wet effects from the PCM92.

No other faders are turned up in the DSP mixer software for the Profire.

I created a second track 2, then created a send on track 1 to track 2. In track 2, I inserted an FX plugin called ReaInsert which enables me to route the PCM92 wet signal into track 2. In the plugin control window for ReaInsert, I chose the associated Hardware sends and returns. This is what enabled me to hear the blended dry guitar track with the PCM wet guitar signal in track 2.

This is as far as I have gotten.

I am also able to connect the PCM92 to the Profire using the AES i/o's to the Profire's S/PDIF i/o"s. But, for purposes here, with your help, I am using the Profire I/O's 3 and 4 with the Analog I/O's on the PCM92.

The DSP mixer for the Profire is very confusing to me, and really makes no sense in some respects, and gets in the way, but it is what it is, and I am forced to learn how to use it.

[moon]

OK.

(1) Delete all the reaper sends.

(2) Got to the mixer tab for Analog 3/4. Zero faders (or mute) software returns 1 & 2. Turn the fader for analog input 1 (guitar) up. Set pan to centre.

This will pass the analogue input straight to Profire outputs 3 & 4. You can also do a send from within the DAW but this way saves an AD conversion in to the DAW and a DA conversion back out again to the Profire line outs 3 & 4.

That's it. You should now be able to record a separate wet track as you play (remember to set the Lexicon to 100% wet mix). You shouldn't get any input to the Lexicon unless you're actually playing guitar.

There's a couple of other things to do but can you confirm this works?

Another way to check: when you plug headphones in to the first headphone socket (same signal as Profire line out 1 & 2), you'll always hear the DAW output. When you plug headphones into the second headphone socket (same signal as Profire line out 3 & 4), you should hear the Lexicon input only (the guitar) and nothing else, and only while you're actually playing the guitar.

[moon]

Originally Posted by Rick Shepherd

The DSP mixer for the Profire is very confusing to me, and really makes no sense in some respects, and gets in the way, but it is what it is, and I am forced to learn how to use it.

The DSP mixer is a kind of glorified patchbay. In a pure hardware set up, all the hardware devices - monitors, guitars, FX - have to be physically hooked up to each other. You have to do some of that, and the rest has been virtualised into the software world. The good news is that, once it's set up, you can pretty much forget about it and get on with some work in the DAW. That's where you'll do all the real mixing.

There are two things you might want to send to the outputs. Monitoring mixes, obviously, so you can listen to the song you're working on. As well as the main stereo mix, sometimes people have an additional mix specifically for a singer or a guitarist, maybe with a bunch of stuff stripped out so they can hear what they're doing more clearly.

The other thing you can do with the DSP mixer is patch Profire inputs straight to Profire outputs in order to set up an FX send & return - like we're doing here.

Either way all you're ever doing in the DSP mixer is controlling what signals you're sending to the Profire outputs. The raw inputs are piped straight to the DAW (I think - at any rate that's how the M-Audio software which I'm used to works).

So it might be clearer if they called it a "Line Outs Mixer". The graphic design doesn't help either. It kind of splats everything together in one big mass whereas you've actually got three sections in each tab: Profire inputs, digital audio streams from the computer (the software returns), and a master volume.

[Rick Shepherd]

Moon, thanks! I was hoping to be able to just record everything dry, then go back and add effects later. If I initially record the tracks with reverb, then I am stuck with it, and I don't have a dry recording to save. Also, in doing so, I prefer to use the PCM's AES connects and Profire's S/PDIF connects to route the PCM effects into the mix.

I can't tell you how much I appreciate your help!

[moon]

OK I thought you wanted to hear (and record) the reverb while you play, with the dry and wet signals recorded on separate tracks. That way you can listen and make some adjustments to the effect before actually hitting the "start recording" button.

(1) To record a wet track after the fact, send (in Reaper) the dry track to a pair of unused "system outs", or whatever Reaper calls them (these are the "software returns" in the DSP mixer). Numbers 9 & 10 will do. Anything except 1 & 2 which are being used for the main stereo output from the DAW.

This bit I'm not sure about. First lets check some terms. An insert sends a signal and receives a reply right back at the insert point. A send just sends and doesn't get a reply, at least not right there and then in the same track. You don't want an insert: you want a send so that the dry track signal is connected direct to the Spdif outs as well as the DAW master track. If the VST does sends as well as inserts, try that. If not, there must be some way to do it in the DAW.

(2) In the DSP mixer, open the mixer tab for "Spdif Out L/R" and turn up the faders for software returns 9 & 10. Zero everything else except the tab master volume on the far right.

Now, with the Lexicon hooked up to the Profire by spdif, when you roll the transport you'll get the wet signal back on inputs 5 & 6 in Reaper - maybe it will call them "spdif L" and "spdif R" instead.

I'm afraid I don't know what else you might need to set up with the digital link - masters, slaves, word clocks and so on. Hopefully it'll just work. If I had to guess, I'd set the Lexicon to "slave". That's one more thing to go wrong so it might be better just to try analogue first until you've mastered all the routing - same as above but use an analogue mixer tab rather than spdif.

This must be incredibly frustrating for you but it will work, eventually

[Rick Shepherd]

Ok moon,

Thanks again! I was able to set this up. I am now at the point where I need someone who knows Reaper to help out. Now that I have the wet signal patched into the dry track by way of a effects bus track, I need guidance on how to actually apply and save the wet PCM92 effect signal to the dry. That way, I can move to, say a vocal track to do the same, perhaps with a different reverb effect. When I am finished with all that, I will need help figuring out how to render it as a wav or mp3 and burn to a CD if I choose.

[moon]

OK I had a quick look at Reaper. Have you discovered the routing matrix? There are two tabs in the main screen, bottom left, one for "mixer" and one for "routing/grouping matrix".

When you open the routing matrix, you'll see a boxed grid which shows tracks, Profire inputs, and audio outputs (the DSP mixer's software returns). Just click in the boxes to connect/disconnect.

To create a send, connect the dry guitar track to a couple of unused outputs - say 3 & 4. Leave the guitar track connected to the master out.

In the DSP mixer tab for the spdif outputs, software returns 3 & 4 - and nothing else - should have the fader turned up.

To collect the Lexicon output, just go to the Reaper routing matrix and hook up the Profire spdif inputs to whichever track you want to record into. In the routing matrix, the spdif inputs probably won't be named as such but just something like "audio in 5" or "system input 6".

[moon]

PS: you probably wouldn't expect to record-arm tracks in a routing matrix but, yep, that's what they've done in Reaper. When you click to connect tracks to inputs it will also toggle through record-arm on and record-armed off.

[Joseph Hanna]

Originally Posted by moon

OK I had a quick look at Reaper. Have you discovered the routing matrix? There are two tabs in the main screen, bottom left, one for "mixer" and one for "routing/grouping matrix".

When you open the routing matrix, you'll see a boxed grid which shows tracks, Profire inputs, and audio outputs (the DSP mixer's software returns). Just click in the boxes to connect/disconnect.

To create a send, connect the dry guitar track to a couple of unused outputs - say 3 & 4. Leave the guitar track connected to the master out.

In the DSP mixer tab for the spdif outputs, software returns 3 & 4 - and nothing else - should have the fader turned up.

To collect the Lexicon output, just go to the Reaper routing matrix and hook up the Profire spdif inputs to whichever track you want to record into. In the routing matrix, the spdif inputs probably won't be named as such but just something like "audio in 5" or "system input 6".

This is what you're looking for Rick!

Moon I'm gonna ask a couple of questions for Rick. Rick I hope you don't mind.
Can Rick ditch the ProFire 610 software?? It's WAY more than he needs right now and a simple i/o matrix from Reaper would more than meet his needs?

Do you know if Reaper can "freeze" a track in Reaper that has an outboard FX unit inserted?

Thanks
JH

[moon]

Originally Posted by Joseph Hanna

Can Rick ditch the ProFire 610 software?? It's WAY more than he needs right now and a simple i/o matrix from Reaper would more than meet his needs?

I haven't used the Profire before, or Reaper, so I'm flying blind a bit. However, I'm almost certain you do have to use the DSP mixer software. This translates the Profire hardware into software entities which can be seen by the computer and a GUI which can be seen by you. Without it, the OS won't be able to interact with the interface.

I actually quite like all the options it provides but it's a good point you make: M-Audio should probably offer a really simple version just to get started. You could explore all the possibilities later once you've got a few songs down and are starting to get familiar with the way it works.

Forgot to mention: if you can't see a routing matrix tab bottom left press Alt-R to toggle it on and off. Or go to the view menu.

Originally Posted by Joseph Hanna

Do you know if Reaper can "freeze" a track in Reaper that has an outboard FX unit inserted?

Not sure what this is. Do you mean lock the I/O configuration to prevent accidental editing? I'd expect you can probably save tracks or entire reaper projects as templates. You'll also want to check the DSP mixer. It should just remember all your settings automatically but if it lets you save settings do that as well, just in case. That would let you recover settings easily.

[KevWind]

This may be a bit out of left field but from what I've read in this thread so far, in answer to one of Rick's questions in his op. Honestly It seems as if the Reaper DAW is more problematic than say Protools. (since it is the only one I know ) I do not know about PT M powered version but now in 9 LE and HD have an Inserts tab just for routing to outboard gear.

[Rick Shepherd]

moon, Joseph, Kevwind,

Thanks for the input!

moon, thanks very much for diving into this thread as much as you have. I will be playing with this alot more. I am getting more comfortable with the routing.

The thing I am focusing on right now is figuring out how to be able to save a copy of the blended wet and dry track. Is this what I am trying to do now, is end up with another blended track? I have two tracks as I mentioned, for example, track 1, the recorded guitar track. I created a second track. This second track receives the send from track 1 which also received the wet effect signal from the PCM92.

What I need here are instructions that will get from this point to a final saved file or recording.

[Joseph Hanna]

Originally Posted by Rick Shepherd

moon, Joseph, Kevwind,

Thanks for the input!

moon, thanks very much for diving into this thread as much as you have. I will be playing with this alot more. I am getting more comfortable with the routing.

The thing I am focusing on right now is figuring out how to be able to save a copy of the blended wet and dry track. Is this what I am trying to do now, is end up with another blended track? I have two tracks as I mentioned, for example, track 1, the recorded guitar track. I created a second track. This second track receives the send from track 1 which also received the wet effect signal from the PCM92.

What I need here are instructions that will get from this point to a final saved file or recording.

The first and CERTAINLY easiest would be freeze tracks. As a reference to the absolute beauty of freeze tracks if I had your scenario in Logic I would go to the track in question, on that track there is a little green icon button, I would...........hit that button. That's it. Done. No routing, no bobin and weavin', no pulling your hair out. Hit a button. Takes 1/4 of a second. Boom. Done. It simply doesn't get any easier than this. The problem in all of this is I don't know if Reaper provides this feature.

Freeze tracks were put on this earth for the sole purpose of what you are trying to do. Many folks (myself included) base their entire reason for choosing a DAW on if that DAW can do the miraculous little trick of FREEZE TRACKS! I use Logic for compositional stuff over Pro Tools for the SOLE reason Logic provides me with freeze tracks. I'm developing a theme here and many can guess the theme is FREEZE TRACKS. Oh, by the way did I mention freeze tracks??

It is also why I've been telling you that before we jump into another mumbo jumbo routing mess let's first find out if Reaper has.....freeze tracks. Your life will be exponentially easier if we just get one of the many Reaper experts here to chime in.


Soooooooooo. All you folks that constantly rave about Reaper. Reaper users unite and help us. Does Reaper provide for freeze track????????????