Just picked up a 414 and tried some mid side. What do you guys think?

[Fichtezc]

Okay, finally got a chance to go into the studio and record to the protools rig instead of my personal one.

https://soundcloud.com/fichtezc/mid-side-test-ii

It pulled pretty hard to one side but I went in and dragged the mid track until it didn't anymore. This may have messed up the phase but I still think it SOUNDS pretty good.

I don't like the reverbs on that computer as much as I like my Bricasti ones. Anyone know any good convolution reverbs for pro tools?

[YamaYairi]

Originally Posted by Fichtezc

Okay, finally got a chance to go into the studio and record to the protools rig instead of my personal one.

https://soundcloud.com/fichtezc/mid-side-test-ii

It pulled pretty hard to one side but I went in and dragged the mid track until it didn't anymore. This may have messed up the phase but I still think it SOUNDS pretty good.

I don't like the reverbs on that computer as much as I like my Bricasti ones. Anyone know any good convolution reverbs for pro tools?

This sounds great to me. I am listening with headphones and it sounds balanced and I like the sound of the guitar. Not a lot of bass but I don't know what your guitar sounds like.

[Doug Young]

Sounds very nice here. Panning the mid track should be "safer" than panning the overall mix, and is one advantage of not using a decoder. The sides will still cancel when you go to mono.

BTW, another tip for setting the balance when you are setting up mics. If you like the overall location, but the balance is off, you don't have to move the mics - just rotate the side mic. This solves the issue of deciding that the best tone comes from having the mid mic aimed at a spot, but the balance is off. This only works if you have 2 mics, as you do (and not a stereo one where you cant move the mic's independently). This assumes you have some way to monitor the balance while you're setting up.

[moon]

Originally Posted by Fichtezc

What do you guys think? It sounds a little woofy to me but that might just be the guitar. When I tried to move it more to the side I lost warmth.

http://youtu.be/baeKFz8VzLw

Sounds very good.

Judging by the finger/string noise you can hear from time to time, it doesn't sound to me that the recording set up was attenuating much high end, if any.

Didn't hear any woofiness.

Picking up on the fine points of a recording does depend what you're listening on though. Maybe my headphones are a little on the bright side.

Nice sense of space - mid-side seems to work really well.

[Fichtezc]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

Sounds very nice here. Panning the mid track should be "safer" than panning the overall mix, and is one advantage of not using a decoder. The sides will still cancel when you go to mono.

BTW, another tip for setting the balance when you are setting up mics. If you like the overall location, but the balance is off, you don't have to move the mics - just rotate the side mic. This solves the issue of deciding that the best tone comes from having the mid mic aimed at a spot, but the balance is off. This only works if you have 2 mics, as you do (and not a stereo one where you cant move the mic's independently). This assumes you have some way to monitor the balance while you're setting up.

I actually didn't even pan it, I just dragged the region until the meter stopped pulling so hard to the left/right. It sounded sort of weird and honky until I moved the region. I wonder if it's a protools delay thing because the waveforms are definitely out of phase but it sounds better.

Awesome tip, thanks!

Originally Posted by YamaYairi

This sounds great to me. I am listening with headphones and it sounds balanced and I like the sound of the guitar. Not a lot of bass but I don't know what your guitar sounds like.

She's tiny, a Taylor 712 with a (cracked) cedar top. This is probably the most accurate recording of the guitar I've ever done. It sounds like I'm listening to someone else play it in a big hall. Usually when I want more low end I pair the mics with the anthem inside it. When I get my Mojave back I'm going to do a recording with the Mojave and AKG in MS and the oktavas as a spaced pair with the pickup underneath it all.

Originally Posted by moon

Sounds very good.

Judging by the finger/string noise you can hear from time to time, it doesn't sound to me that the recording set up was attenuating much high end, if any.

Didn't hear any woofiness.

Picking up on the fine points of a recording does depend what you're listening on though. Maybe my headphones are a little on the bright side.

Nice sense of space - mid-side seems to work really well.

Yeah, I scooped out a little around 12k or so, just 2.5db because there was a slight brittleness to the sound and that seemed to tame it. I actually also rolled all the lows below 75 too.


Thanks everyone! Really enjoying this.

EDIT: Here's the video if you want to see placement or anything:
http://youtu.be/bEw35V5MgRA

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by Fichtezc

I actually didn't even pan it, I just dragged the region until the meter stopped pulling so hard to the left/right. It sounded sort of weird and honky until I moved the region. I wonder if it's a protools delay thing because the waveforms are definitely out of phase but it sounds better.

Oh, that's a bit weird. So you changed the phase of the mid mic in relation to the side mics. I'd not expect that to be needed unless something is going on to introduce either a phase issue or latency in one channel.

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by Fichtezc

Okay, finally got a chance to go into the studio and record to the protools rig instead of my personal one.

https://soundcloud.com/fichtezc/mid-side-test-ii

It pulled pretty hard to one side but I went in and dragged the mid track until it didn't anymore. This may have messed up the phase but I still think it SOUNDS pretty good.

I don't like the reverbs on that computer as much as I like my Bricasti ones. Anyone know any good convolution reverbs for pro tools?

Sounds ok but a bit thin and narrow. I think you had a better sound going on in some of your other recordings.

[Fichtezc]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

Oh, that's a bit weird. So you changed the phase of the mid mic in relation to the side mics. I'd not expect that to be needed unless something is going on to introduce either a phase issue or latency in one channel.

Yeah, I originally did it to perfectly line up the phase of the mid mic and the side mics and then I just sort of dragged it further and it made the stereo image balance.

Originally Posted by rick-slo

Sounds ok but a bit thin and narrow. I think you had a better sound going on in some of your other recordings.

Maybe my phase tampering is why you think this one sounds thin?

It may be a bit narrow but I think this is the truest recording of my Taylor I've ever gotten. That's very nearly what it sounds like to me. I would like to get it wider, though. Might switch back to a spaced pair soon!

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by Fichtezc

Yeah, I originally did it to perfectly line up the phase of the mid mic and the side mics and then I just sort of dragged it further and it made the stereo image balance.

How did you determine that they were out of phase? You shouldn't need to do that - this is a coincident setup. Of course, the mid and sides are inherently out of phase when you look at them independently, that's just the nature of stereo. You could think of mid as the "in phase" component of the sound, and the sides and the "out of phase" part. It's what tells our ears that the sound is stereo, so you don't want to alter that.

[Fichtezc]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

How did you determine that they were out of phase? You shouldn't need to do that - this is a coincident setup. Of course, the mid and sides are inherently out of phase when you look at them independently, that's just the nature of stereo. You could think of mid as the "in phase" component of the sound, and the sides and the "out of phase" part. It's what tells our ears that the sound is stereo, so you don't want to alter that.

When I zoomed in on the waveform the Oktava was a couple of ms (not really sure of a specific number) ahead of the 414s. Obviously the 414s were opposites but the Oktava was a little early. I dragged it to match the peaks/valleys of the 414s. So are you saying that...delay (?) is what makes the stereo image?

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by Fichtezc

When I zoomed in on the waveform the Oktava was a couple of ms (not really sure of a specific number) ahead of the 414s. Obviously the 414s were opposites but the Oktava was a little early. I dragged it to match the peaks/valleys of the 414s. So are you saying that...delay (?) is what makes the stereo image?

yes, the mics are picking up in different directions, so there's inherently a delay. If you think about our ears, there are 2 things that give our brains a clue about direction, or "stereo". A sound coming from the left will be slightly louder in our left ear than our right, and also arrive at the left ear a millisecond or so before it hits the right. That is, the sound is out of phase. That's a simplified view, ignoring the impact of all the room reflections and so on, which are also arriving with different levels and phase relationships, all of which our brains use to figure out where the sound is coming from.

People treat "phase" as if it's a bad thing. It's not, it's perfectly natural, and what makes us hear the way we hear, and makes the entire stereo illusion in recording work. It's only a bad thing when we do something un-natural, like fliping polarity of a mic, setting up mics in a way that the sound reaches them in a unrealistic way and then combining the sound into mono, or slip tracks to alter the phase :-)

[Fichtezc]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

yes, the mics are picking up in different directions, so there's inherently a delay. If you think about our ears, there are 2 things that give our brains a clue about direction, or "stereo". A sound coming from the left will be slightly louder in our left ear than our right, and also arrive at the left ear a millisecond or so before it hits the right. That is, the sound is out of phase. That's a simplified view, ignoring the impact of all the room reflections and so on, which are also arriving with different levels and phase relationships, all of which our brains use to figure out where the sound is coming from.

People treat "phase" as if it's a bad thing. It's not, it's perfectly natural, and what makes us hear the way we hear, and makes the entire stereo illusion in recording work. It's only a bad thing when we do something un-natural, like fliping polarity of a mic, setting up mics in a way that the sound reaches them in a unrealistic way and then combining the sound into mono, or slip tracks to alter the phase :-)

Huh, great explanation. I always thought I just wasn't setting the mics properly because they didn't line up. Does this apply to a stereo pair as well? I mean, they should line up slightly better, right?

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by Fichtezc

Huh, great explanation. I always thought I just wasn't setting the mics properly because they didn't line up. Does this apply to a stereo pair as well? I mean, they should line up slightly better, right?

Each mic setup has different characteristics. In theory X-Y is totally phase coherent, and the stereo effect comes only from level differences. In practice, of course, the 2 mics can't occupy the same space, so there's some minimal phase difference. Spaced pairs exhibit both level and big phase differences. In between are things like ORTF that are, well, in between. ORTF most closely matches the way we hear - the space between is supposed to reflect the width of a human head.

You generally try to minimize the phase differences in stereo pairs - just to make sure the phase difference that are there truly come from the stereo effect, not from mic mis-placement, but you can never truly eliminate them - partly because it's inherent (and desirable) for the sound, partly because phase is frequency dependent - you can get two sine waves truly in sync, but a real musical signal, where all the frequency components of the sound are naturally at different phases, can only be truly in phase at a specific frequency, and even because the different parts of the guitar vibrate at different phases.

MS is just a different way to record XY, and if you just follow the rules and don't try to look under the hood, you'll get the equivalent of XY. Of course, if you aren't trying for a pure recording, there are all kinds of ways to mess with the sound using MS. There are lots of plugins that take any stereo source, convert to to MS, do any wacky thing they want to the sides and/or mid (EQ them different, compress them differently, etc, etc), then convert back to regular stereo. Many plugings don't even advertize that that's what they're doing - it's just a mathematical manipulation.

[rick-slo]

Being out of phase gives the depth/space stereo effect. Without it you have mono. Collapse a stereo file to mono and you have comb filtering - you would have been better off recording with just one mike.
That said you can nudge a delay on a mike channel if it improves the sound to your ears. Usually it will just be a millisecond or less. You will be creating more in phase on some frequencies and less in phase on others. It will be more noticible and consistent on headphones than with speakers.

[Athana]

I like the music but it does not sound "open" enough