"Spanish Heel" Neck Reset?

[murrmac123]

Originally Posted by Howard Klepper

How do you come to have a photo of jseth's guitar, Murray?

Worry not, Howard, nothing sinister or creepy whatsoever ...

I input "Mark Angus #35" into Google, found out that jseth had discussed the guitar on a few other forums and had uploaded a pic, which I then proceeded to download.

It's a nice looking guitar, isn't it ? I love the Florentine cutaway, done to perfection, aesthetically.

[tadol]

Originally Posted by arie

i can't understand why someone would build a steel string guitar with a Spanish heel. to be clever? to be crafty? to channel the spirits of long dead craftsmen? to give repairmen nightmares? sure the Spanish method can be faster and requires less tooling to build, but should this be the only reason?

granted the op's guitar has held up for 33 yrs without a problem and seems like a decent guitar but there are other ways to resist modern string's tension and modern players needs for heavier strings and alt turnings, then an ancient method originally conceived for strings made from feline intestines. maybe this how it was done in the 70's ?

re: fixin' it, i'd go for a new fretboard installed by the builder. it's actually not as much work as it sounds.

If you look back at the resources available to anyone interested in becoming a luthier 35 + years ago, there simply weren't very many. You could get brazillian at the local hardwoods dealer, but most was rejected for not being quartered. Sides were frequently boiled. And there just weren't many people building, and it wasn't easy for them to be in touch with each other. Heck, even Martin was having a hard time getting their bridges glued in the right place. A nice handbuilt thats lasted this long is a pretty special thing.

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by Howard Klepper

If you disagree, I'd rather you say so, and that you would rather not hijack the thread with a discussion of it (understandable). The double positive in "Sure, you're right," is often used to indicate a negative.

It isn't that I disagree, but, rather, that there are shades of grey not addressed in your absolute statement, not the least of which is in that "the work will be done to professional standards." One person's "professional standards" aren't the same as another's. To believe that there is a single standard to which all repair persons/luthiers - and customers - adhere is, as you put it, "naive". There is a lot of substandard work out there being performed to the "professional standards" of the individuals performing that work. There are also many customers who's expectations are completely unrealistic, expecting a silk purse be made from a sow's ear for $25. Part of a "professional standard", in my opinion, is to educate customers and manage their expectations. That directly feeds into customer satisfaction.

I don't want to hijack this thread but I'm also not particularly interested in spending the time right now to debate/discuss "professional standards" and their relationship to customer satisfaction. Thus, I'll just "mostly agree" and move on.

[jeff crisp]

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

the opinions you receive here are largely irrelevant.

Really........so if I look back over a number of your previous posts............................................. ..........................

Jeff.

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by jeff crisp

Really........so if I look back over a number of your previous posts............................................. ..........................

Jeff.

Perhaps.

But, when you quote something, the context in which it was said matters.

[jeff crisp]

Charles the fact that youve said "perhaps" shows me you know what Im referring to. Theres no need for me to be captain obvious (IVE never thought YOU were stupid) just like theres no need for you to be captain pompous.

Jeff.

[Ned Milburn]

OK, so the options have already been stated.

I'll just add this - I think it best to assess the reason(s) for why the geometry has degraded causing the need for remedial action. Spanish heels should have no movement at the heel. I expect the cause is due to top deformation but cannot of course confirm from afar.

Depending on the severity of the necessary ' neck reset ' it may be an option to lower the bridge slightly. If the angle is too extreme, this may not be feasible at all.

The Spanish guitar design is a comprehensive structure that, if built well, can last an owner's lifetime without needing a reset if built properly.

I would lean towards removing part or all of the back and rebinding if a severe reset is needed.

[arie]

Originally Posted by tadol

If you look back at the resources available to anyone interested in becoming a luthier 35 + years ago, there simply weren't very many. You could get brazillian at the local hardwoods dealer, but most was rejected for not being quartered. Sides were frequently boiled. And there just weren't many people building, and it wasn't easy for them to be in touch with each other. Heck, even Martin was having a hard time getting their bridges glued in the right place. A nice handbuilt thats lasted this long is a pretty special thing.

indeed, you're correct. thanks. but on the other hand the mortise and tenon joint and the dovetail joint have been around a very long time.

[Zigeuner]

Originally Posted by Howard Klepper

If you disagree, I'd rather you say so, and that you would rather not hijack the thread with a discussion of it (understandable). The double positive in "Sure, you're right," is often used to indicate a negative.

OP, there is stuff left out in Frank's photo essay--everything about resetting the neck angle and how that will affect the fit of the heel, the finish retouching (the heel will no longer match the finish marks on the sides after it is set back), and the change in intonation (there will be more than .010" of wood removed at the top of the neck by the time the heel is fully fitted). I would not convert a fine guitar from Spanish to bolt on construction. And Frank is wrong that the wedged fretboard requires extensive touchup; see my first post re the right way to do that job.

What John calls the "California" neck reset (I resemble that remark!) is getting to be a lost art, but can be appropriate. I would avoid it if the guitar has the Spanish foot on its heel inside.

Ha. That's funny to hear someone talk about a "California neck reset" again. I once read a thread where that term was discussed on another site. Mr. Ford said that he disliked it, especially in relation to his friend Jon Lundberg who used to have a shop in Berkeley, Cal.

Regardless of what you call it, Jon Lundberg was one of the first in California that I heard was doing neck resets in this style. I heard this first at McCabe's guitar shop when I was taking lessons there in the mid 1960's.

The process, for those who don't know, involves removing the binding around the upper bout below the neck heel on the back. After that, the back is loosened from the neck block and the neck simply pulled to the appropriate angle and then everything is reglued. This also necessitates shortening the back where it would then overhang the sides at the upper bout. Then the binding would be replaced and refinishing done as required.

Sadly, the guitar would look odd after the process. I've seen a few done that way and I sure wouldn't want one.

I think the proper way to correct the action on a guitar with a Spanish Neck Heel would be to shim or replace the fingerboard with one that is tapered as mentioned above.

Just my 2 centavos (that's Spanish, LOL) .

[jseth]

Whoah! I REALLY appreciate all the response to my post... I didn't think there would be so many rampant opinions on the subject, but, I've owned and played this guitar for 33 years and, until now, never knew it was built with "Spanish Heel" construction...

I suppose the first time that I suspected "something" was different was when I asked James Goodall (who was re-installing my Anthem SL and doing a set-up for me), "Does the guitar need a neck reset?" ...and James responded by saying, "I don't think there's enough mass on the heel block of the guitar to do a neck reset..."

In any event, the guitar is eminently playable right now; just beginning to get that "sitar-like" over-ring to a few notes on the B string... the action is decent, actually a bit lower than I prefer (I like to be able to hit it hard when deemed necessary!); as I mentioned, there is a very small profile of the saddle above the bridge - maybe 1/8" on the bass side, MUCH less on the treble side - but, this guitar has always had a saddle height that was a bit lower than many; the bridge itself is not extra high, substantial but not like some of Gibson "moustache" bridges I've seen; the top has NOT moved much, if at all, through the years... it's finished with nitro lacquer... there is a 4" section on the backstrip, down near the butt of the guitar, where the rosewood strip separated slightly from the 2 piece maple back... enough to feel with my fingers but not enough to see... although it was treated, I can still feel that tiny bit of separation...

I believe that the coming refret will be the 2nd time I've had the frets replaced, completely... not counting all the times they've been dressed, of course.

All in all, despite one comment made here, this guitar has been (and is) a GEM of an instrument! Sounds great, plays great, amplifies very well (thanks to the maple) for such a light, responsive guitar... even the finish, which does show a small amount of checking, has held up well, especially considering that I have not babied this guitar; it has been played hard and nearly constantly for it's entire life, and has traveled throughout much of the contiguous U.S. and Hawaii... for 33 years! Pretty good for my $800 investment in 1979...

My only concern now is the cost of the repair, and I do hope it is not prohibitive. I rather like this guitar and would like to keep it, keep playing it, for many years to come!

Thank you all, for comments and explanations... and for keeping the discourse reasonably civil...

[John Arnold]

Spanish heels should have no movement at the heel.

No guitar should have movement at the heel. Most neck resets are required because the soundboard is distorted.

In any event, the guitar is eminently playable right now;

the action is decent, actually a bit lower than I prefer (I like to be able to hit it hard when deemed necessary!)

Those statements are not consistent with the need for a reset.

[JLS]

Originally Posted by jseth

Now, THAT was something else! Thanks for the link; Mr. Ford does amazing work, and I will certainly let Mark Angus know about this nifty little article! Seems reasonably straightforward, too; not that I would try it, but for someone who knows what they're doing...

This option actually seems to be the best of all he's listed; he didn't mention either the time spent or the cost of the repair, but it looks promising. At this point in the proceedings, I don't know if the work will be under Mark's lifetime warranty or not... I hope it is, and that he can make some money off of a refret so he doesn't feel like the whole thing is for free...

Thanks again for the link!

John

I was going to mention that IMO, this guitar is a candidate for a bolt-on conversion.

BTW- Frank told me he no longer uses the bonesaw. A flush cutting Japanese pullsaw will detach a neck with surprising cleanliness & speed.

[jseth]

Originally Posted by John Arnold

No guitar should have movement at the heel. Most neck resets are required because the soundboard is distorted.


Those statements are not consistent with the need for a reset.

Okay, maybe I'm off base here... right now, the top doesn't look all distorted; a bit of a belly behind the bridge is all... the action is a bit low, as I said, and James Goodall had to "slot" the high E string to get it to intonate close to spot-on... the saddle barely comes up above the bridge on that high E string. The neck is fairly straight; I've relaxed the truss rod a bit to get some more relief in the neck, hoping that it would raise the action slightly, while still keeping the intonation fairly close to correct...

Now, add to that the fact that the fretwire is pretty close to the fretboard, AND I'm starting to get some buzzing on the B and E strings in the 3rd fret>7th fret area (which indicates to me that a fret dressing is inorder, only these are too low for that now...)...

Seems silly to put new frets in her, without having the neck angle correctly set... ?

I certainly trust Mark to do the work that's needed...

[Ned Milburn]

An I missing something? Sounds to of like the action is too low and you should forget neck reset and get a taller saddle and have the action adjusted as it should be. By "Slotting " I wonder what you mean but can't quickly imagine how this would affect intonation.

[redir]

Another method for setting the neck on a Spanish heal is to remove the upper portion of the back, set the angle and re-glue the back. I've done that once and probably never will again, it's a real PIA. I now advocate for the bolt on conversion since it keeps the neck feel the same. But some customers don't like bolts in there guitars so they get the shim or if it's a minor case and the fret board is thick enough a simple refret with planed angle in the fret board.