Chasing bluegrass/country sound (some bridge pin content included)

[vindibona1]

First, thanks to those in the other thread, particularly Silly Moustache who posted so many great clips of bluegrass and flatpick players. As I indicated, sometimes stuff just has to be pointed out to me. With those sounds in mind I was thinking about how I could get close to them.

My '72 D35 isn't that far off, and neither is my "upgraded" 2011 Taylor 614 with SUS heavies and bone saddle. But in the closet was my lonely 1981 MIJ Epiphone PR-755s. I hadn't played it in a long time. I just wasn't liking the sound, but new it might be the closest thing to what I was hearing with the bluegrass/country sounds I was becoming acquainted with. It was long overdue for new strings and I had some SIT strings to test, so why not drag it out and see what I have.

With strings changed I strummed a few bars and wasn't liking what I was hearing. This MIJ Epiphone has solid wood, back and sides (not laminate like the US model with the same designation), sitka over rosewood, but sounded like a laminate guitar. Inside the body there was harmonic sustained, but far too much and to some extent not in tune with the strings' fundamentals; almost like a "howling". I would have dismissed it immediately if I hadn't experienced something recently with my Taylor 910 and Gibson strings. The pins? Striped ebony! I know ebony pins tend to be very lively, so I thought to try bone pins.

All my regular bone pins were already in other guitars so all I had left was a custom set with brass inserts (provided by another forum member behind the scenes). They weren't my first choice but what I had. I first weighed a few bone pins on a jewely scale. 1.53 grams consistently. The ebony pins, .62 gms. There *should* be an audible difference... and there was.

The new custom bone pins dried up all the howling, eliminated anything that sounded like the intonation of the harmonics was out of tune (probably causing what I perceived as the "howling" effect). There was a gravitas to the sound, and good volume. There was something else bothering me, so I decided to let the guitar settle overnight.

BTW... Those SIT (Stay In Tune) strings were quite difficult to get into tune in the first place! I installed them as per the package's instruction. It took 6 or 7 tuning, tugging and retuning to get the pitches relatively stable. It was better after sitting overnight.

So today I've been listening to recordings and trying to see how close I could come to some of the sounds I was hearing. I'm not there yet, but at least I have a couple of sound targets to try to emulate. With the tuning stable on my Epi I'd pick and strum and while it was pretty good, I felt like the B and high E string were a little bright, a little loud and a little out of control. Perhaps if they were .013 and.017 it would have been significantly different. And so my first instinct was to swap the custom bone pins on 1st and 2nd string for African Blackwood...

To my surprise the sound got brighter and thinner. This obviously wasn't going to work. So, the only pins that were left in my bin that seemed like candidates to take down the presence of the unwound strings were the original plastic pins from my D35. And whadday know... Perhaps not the ideal sound, but certainly close enough to work with.

It may be important to note for those following the bridge pin diatribes, that the ebony and plastic pins were exactly .062grams and the African blackwood were .067 grams. In my mind this totally blows the hypothesis of mass being the sole factor in bridge pin sound modification out of the water. But I think the reason why people think that is because the effect of mass is so evident on fundamentals coming off the strings. And what I've discovered is that the pins don't affect tone as we traditionally think of it, but affects the harmonic resonance inside the body of the guitar, which so many (including myself until recently) do.

And so while "chasing" tone isn't quite accurate, I'm now on the path of trying to emulate sounds of master players in their element.

Anyway... here is a shot of the bridge pins as they exist in my Epiphone (not the brass inserts). Also I've included the striped ebony, just because they are cool looking.

[Inyo]

Originally Posted by vindibona1

I thought to try bone pins.

The best bone pins for Bluegrass are pre-war Herringbone pins.

You're welcome.

[J Patrick]

..pick selection is by far the best way to tweak the tone once you have settled on strings...(I highly recommend John Pearse New Mediums for a Bluegrass guitar)...it might be worth investing in a couple of premium picks...they’re easy to resell here if they don’t work out for you...

[DesertTwang]

Vindi, as someone who has been "chasing the best flatpicking sound" myself for the past 8 or so years, can I share my honest suggestion?

You may not like it.

Forget all this bridge pin baloney, and all these exercises in what amounts to nothing but theory.

Flatpicking and, by extension, bluegrass, is about DOING it. It's about passion, about technique, and it's about hard work, and constant strive to get better.

All this talk here on the forum about other flatpickers and how to "emulate" their playing is not going to get you what you're after.

The only thing that will is listening to this music, A LOT. And you have to pay it, A LOT. You have to live and breathe this kind of stuff, and you have to get out and play with others. Bluegrass is all about playing with other people.

Technique is about 300% more important in achieving a good flatpicking sound and technique than bridge pin details.

There are lots of opportunities to develop bad picking habits, and the key is to avoid those. I have found nothing as useful on my own flatpicking journey as Bryan Sutton's online school.

And mostly, flatpicking is about having fun. Obsessing over bridge pins, the minutiae of bracing patterns etc. is a complete waste of time.

Get out there, pick with people and have fun!

[Silly Moustache]

Hi Vindibona,

Desert twang has just voiced what I was working out how to say.

Bluegrass guitar ISN'T guitar, or accessories, it is a style, and a feeling.

You said that you had a '72 D35, but I only saw a pic of an Epiphone (?) FWIW, I played only a D23 from '75 to '96. It worked fine, no special pins, picks or anything.

I suggest that you seek out a bluegrass jam, to join, or seek out others who share your interest. This may require some pro-activity on your part.

In 2006 I wasn't doing much playing, or getting many gigs so I started my own club, been running it twice monthly ever since.

Get out there and just do it!

oh. btw - this might help a bit -

[mcduffnw]

Originally Posted by DesertTwang

Vindi, as someone who has been "chasing the best flatpicking sound" myself for the past 8 or so years, can I share my honest suggestion?

You may not like it.

Forget all this bridge pin baloney, and all these exercises in what amounts to nothing but theory.

Flatpicking and, by extension, bluegrass, is about DOING it. It's about passion, about technique, and it's about hard work, and constant strive to get better.

All this talk here on the forum about other flatpickers and how to "emulate" their playing is not going to get you what you're after.

The only thing that will is listening to this music, A LOT. And you have to pay it, A LOT. You have to live and breathe this kind of stuff, and you have to get out and play with others. Bluegrass is all about playing with other people.

Technique is about 300% more important in achieving a good flatpicking sound and technique than bridge pin details.

There are lots of opportunities to develop bad picking habits, and the key is to avoid those. I have found nothing as useful on my own flatpicking journey as Bryan Sutton's online school.

And mostly, flatpicking is about having fun. Obsessing over bridge pins, the minutiae of bracing patterns etc. is a complete waste of time.

Get out there, pick with people and have fun!

I nominate this post by DesertTwang for "Post Of The Year"

It speaks the truth, the plain simple truth.

And most importantly, what he says specifically about Bluegrass technique applies to ANY specific playing styles and techniques.

To amend the heart of his point:

"Technique is about 300% more important in achieving a good...insert any playing style here...sound and technique than bridge pin details"

And his closing missive...gently adjusted:

"And mostly, PLAYING GUITAR is about having fun. Obsessing over bridge pins, the minutiae of bracing patterns etc. is a complete waste of time.

"Get out there, pick with people and have fun!"


Yes indeed "DT"

nuff said


duff
Be A Player...Not A Polisher

[TBman]

Originally Posted by DesertTwang

Vindi, as someone who has been "chasing the best flatpicking sound" myself for the past 8 or so years, can I share my honest suggestion?

You may not like it.

Forget all this bridge pin baloney, and all these exercises in what amounts to nothing but theory.

Flatpicking and, by extension, bluegrass, is about DOING it. It's about passion, about technique, and it's about hard work, and constant strive to get better.

All this talk here on the forum about other flatpickers and how to "emulate" their playing is not going to get you what you're after.

The only thing that will is listening to this music, A LOT. And you have to pay it, A LOT. You have to live and breathe this kind of stuff, and you have to get out and play with others. Bluegrass is all about playing with other people.

Technique is about 300% more important in achieving a good flatpicking sound and technique than bridge pin details.

There are lots of opportunities to develop bad picking habits, and the key is to avoid those. I have found nothing as useful on my own flatpicking journey as Bryan Sutton's online school.

And mostly, flatpicking is about having fun. Obsessing over bridge pins, the minutiae of bracing patterns etc. is a complete waste of time.

Get out there, pick with people and have fun!

Thank you DT!

Hard work pays off in all the genres played here.

[Tnfiddler]

They beat me to it! I was gonna say that you’re putting too much thought into it and worrying about the stuff that doesn’t matter. Practicing bluegrass rhythm technique and playing it a LOT is super important! I’m working on the rhythm part to a new song we’re putting in our set list and it’s REALLY fast with some killer walking bass runs all through it. I played along with that one song, over and over for an hour straight a couple of nights ago playing NOTHING but the bass notes and runs. You need to find you a regular jam and stop chasing a sound and go live the music and experience. I find myself at festivals playing for 7-8 hours straight and forget to eat. This happens almost every time I go. You get in a good circle and everything else goes away and you lose yourself in the music. That’s what bluegrass is all about!

[scotly50]

Originally Posted by DesertTwang

Vindi, as someone who has been "chasing the best flatpicking sound" myself for the past 8 or so years, can I share my honest suggestion?

You may not like it.

Forget all this bridge pin baloney, and all these exercises in what amounts to nothing but theory.

Flatpicking and, by extension, bluegrass, is about DOING it. It's about passion, about technique, and it's about hard work, and constant strive to get better.

All this talk here on the forum about other flatpickers and how to "emulate" their playing is not going to get you what you're after.

The only thing that will is listening to this music, A LOT. And you have to pay it, A LOT. You have to live and breathe this kind of stuff, and you have to get out and play with others. Bluegrass is all about playing with other people.

Technique is about 300% more important in achieving a good flatpicking sound and technique than bridge pin details.

There are lots of opportunities to develop bad picking habits, and the key is to avoid those. I have found nothing as useful on my own flatpicking journey as Bryan Sutton's online school.

And mostly, flatpicking is about having fun. Obsessing over bridge pins, the minutiae of bracing patterns etc. is a complete waste of time.

Get out there, pick with people and have fun!

Best post I have read since perusing this forum. This should be the answer to half of the questions asked by posters on this forum.

[rstaight]

I have to agree. Listen to lots of Bluegrass. Get hooked up with some jams and play, play, play.

Bluegrass has it's roots in "mountain" music. People played inexpensive instruments. They didn't mess with pins, didn't care about all the theory. They used what ever strings they could get, usually Black Diamond. They were cheap and got boiled when they went dead.

Bluegrass is about friends, family, and just having a good time playing music.

[J Patrick]

....why assume that the op doesn’t understand the value of playing....I reckon he probably does.....sometimes folks just want to have fun tweaking their guitar...in my experience a truly accomplished bluegrass flatpicker is a freak of nature...I say ease up on the op and don’t dismiss someones tonequest with sage advice about how you just gotta do it...tone is in the fingers...the heart...the soul...in the hours spent playing...yes...but it’s also in the instrument and all of it’s components...that’s what the op is seeking advice on....obsessing over bridge pins or picks or strings or bracing patterns or top woods or anything else guitar related is what we do here a lot of the time....thats all about having fun too...

[rstaight]

Oops double post

[noledog]

Listen, practice, jam with some friends and get a D18 strung with some medium strings. Then attack it with a BlueChip TAD-50 with a speed bevel and you'll be in the bluegrass tone zone!

[Tnfiddler]

Originally Posted by J Patrick

....why assume that the op doesn’t understand the value of playing....I reckon he probably does.....sometimes folks just want to have fun tweaking their guitar....and in my experience a truly accomplished bluegrass flatpicker is a freak of nature....I say ease up on the op and don’t dismiss someones tonequest with sage advice about how you just gotta do it...tone is in the fingers...the heart...the soul...in the hours spent playing...yes...but it’s also in the instrument and all of it’s components...that’s what the op is seeking advice on....obsessing over bridge pins or picks or strings or bracing patterns or top woods or anything else guitar related is what we do here a lot of the time....thats all about having fun too...

I played bluegrass for MANY years with a Taylor 810 using Elixir strings and Taylor medium picks and life was PERFECT! Then I made mistake of joining AGF and reading all these posts about strings, picks, bridge pins, etc. and this place made me stop focusing on just playing my guitar and enjoying the music and start chasing the perfect combination of all of those parts. That’s why I posted what I did about just playing. My Martin and Bourgeois are all stock and I just play music now.

[vindibona1]

Originally Posted by J Patrick

..pick selection is by far the best way to tweak the tone once you have settled on strings...(I highly recommend John Pearse New Mediums for a Bluegrass guitar)...it might be worth investing in a couple of premium picks...they’re easy to resell here if they don’t work out for you...

Of course. The pick is important for the artriculation of the front of the note and how hard the strings are attacked based on any number of issues. I do a fair amount of pick testing with all of my guitars and tests.

As to those who say to listen and practice. Of course. IN THE PROCESS OF PRACTICING I discover things that I may not have previously heard. But here's the thing folks...

FOR ME a lot of the tinkering motivates the practice. Don't anyone think for a second that I don't practice. I practice A LOT. Different styles. Different genres. Different instruments. A good portion of my income now comes from teaching private trumpet lessons. I am a musician first. But the tinkering thing... Just in my DNA (ask me about ski boots some time). Within the guitar itself I have certain basic expectations, balance being critical. And as I PRACTICE and listen critically I begin hearing things that I want to bring out and other things that I find annoying to my ears. But you know what? (At least for me) it's fun and I just share my exploits with any interested parties.