Recieved Tone Dexter Yesterday.

[caballero59]

My only mike is an EV ND767a dynamic mic for vocals but tried it anyway. The guitar is a TF360SBG with the CP-2 Cooltube and the EQ set to neutral. The wave maps were ok but thus far, I prefer the guitar without the Tone Dexter, using a heavy mid cut in the preamp, 50% tube and running this into a Cali76 compressor. To my ears, the sound with various wavemaps tended to be hollow sounding but without the quack.

I'm hoping a good condenser will give better results and also am going to try the Martin D-18VS 12 fret with KK that is much deeper sounding. The KK in the 12 fret is so woofy as to be unusable without radical EQ. I'm hoping the TD will like that setup better.

I understand there is a learning curve but I'm not sure how much can really change either when going by the recommended mic positions? Maybe there is some luck in finding a good position.

[ManyMartinMan]

Two things; If you haven’t, try different mic positions. Also, you can rent mics from a local A/V company and use a high-end, or simply different, mic for a few dollars. I demo’ed the TD at NAMM and wasn’t moved to try one further.

[shufflebeat]

This is the text of something I posted on another forum, something in it may be of interest:

Training the Tone Dexter with your DAW

This might be common practice, in which case you'll all be way ahead of me - if not I'll go into more detail if anyone's interested.

I bought a Tone Dexter the other day having already decided that it seemed like a wise investment that would benefit me both as a performer and also as a sound tech for other folky/jazzy bands.

I was pretty impressed with the concept and outcome, as a Fishman Aura Blender user of long standing I recognised a distinct similarity, dramatic improvement along with some of the more unwelcome artefacts of the process. I would go as far as to say a well match "image" in the Aura would be as useful as the TD on some instruments. The problem with the Aura however has always been the "image" lottery - you may find the right one, you may not. Devotees share them in a spirit of mutual support but the only way to guarantee a match was to send your baby off to Planet Fishman to be poked and prodded by strangers, however benevolent. The TD allows you to explore the possibilities in the privacy of your own boudoir.

A successful outcome depends on several variables, including decent mic, appropriate pickup and performance. I collected some of my more predictably useable mics: Rode nt3(sdc), Beyer m201(dyn), Beyer m260n(rbn) and a Sony ecm55b(omni lav) and set about flipping between one and the other. The resulting convoluted process soon became tiresome and I realised that the slightest change in mic position or performance dynamics made reliable comparison very difficult.

I set up three mics in close proximity and put them all into Reaper via my F/R Scarlett 18i6 along with the dry pickup signal, a Baggs M1A - magnetic (eugh!) which is not recommended by the TD folks but IME perfectly useable, at least for this experiment. I then recorded a two minute collage of chords and appropriate melodies to separate tracks and normalised them.

I used the recorded tracks to train the TD by sending the dry pickup out of the left monitor output (into the input of the TD) and each of the mic signals in turn out of the right monitor output (into the training mic input). It worked perfectly, a wavemap for each mic.

I could compare the various mics knowing there was a more level playing field, I could tweak the EQ on any of the recorded training tracks to manipulate the TD wavemap where required. In theory I can build a multi-mic recording setup, maybe the Rode behind the bridge and the Sony on the 10th fret. So long as the signal going to train the TD is in mono and not suffering from fatal comb filtering issues the TD doesn't know or care how I produced it.

I can think of many other possibilities here but thought I might throw it out to see if anyone else has nothing better to do with their time and might share the benefits of their OCD meanderings.

P.S. this makes archiving and remote training a possibilty, good God - will the fun never end?

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by caballlero59

My only mike is an EV ND767a dynamic mic for vocals but tried it anyway. The guitar is a TF360SBG with the CP-2 Cooltube and the EQ set to neutral. The wave maps were ok but thus far, I prefer the guitar without the Tone Dexter, using a heavy mid cut in the preamp, 50% tube and running this into a Cali76 compressor. To my ears, the sound with various wavemaps tended to be hollow sounding but without the quack.

I'm hoping a good condenser will give better results and also am going to try the Martin D-18VS 12 fret with KK that is much deeper sounding. The KK in the 12 fret is so woofy as to be unusable without radical EQ. I'm hoping the TD will like that setup better.

I understand there is a learning curve but I'm not sure how much can really change either when going by the recommended mic positions? Maybe there is some luck in finding a good position.

Hi c59…
Succesful deployment of a Tone Dexter is very dependent on the quality of recording you pull, and better microphones positioned properly will produce better results.

Great sound is also dependent on what you are playing your guitars through.

You can borrow or rent high end mics (you don't have to buy a high end mic for hundreds of dollars). If you have a friend or acquaintance who does a lot of serious recording, you could enlist their help. Maybe there is a sound gear rental place close?

[caballero59]

Thank you for sharing ideas about this. I'm far from giving up. I am going to beg, borrow, or steal a good condenser. I like the form and operation of the pedal very much. If I can get a good wavemap, it will be perfect with the on-board EQ, notch filter, boost, wave maps for optimizing different guitars, etc. It a concept without fault (IMO).

I have been using convolution to feed FOH with my electric guitar for awhile now and couldn't be happier with that, but that also depended on finding the correct IR. My first experiment with IR's for electric sent me scurrying back to mics and analog cab sims. The IR (wave map) makes all the difference.

[Petty1818]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Hi c59…
Succesful deployment of a Tone Dexter is very dependent on the quality of recording you pull, and better microphones positioned properly will produce better results.

Great sound is also dependent on what you are playing your guitars through.

You can borrow or rent high end mics (you don't have to buy a high end mic for hundreds of dollars). If you have a friend or acquaintance who does a lot of serious recording, you could enlist their help. Maybe there is a sound gear rental place close?

I know you have been a K&K user for a while. Have you switched to using the Tonedexter with your K&K pickups?

[Woodstock School Of Music]

Originally Posted by caballlero59

12 fret with KK that is much deeper sounding. The KK in the 12 fret is so woofy as to be unusable without radical EQ. I'm hoping the TD will like that setup better.

Not to derail conversation about TD but I'm curious what you're plugging the K & K into when it sounds like that? preamp? mixer?

[martingitdave]

Did your ToneDexter wave map sound like your guitar played into the same vocal mic? If so, then it did it's job perfectly. If not, then you may prefer the immediacy of the Tak system you are used to.

[caballero59]

Originally Posted by The dman

Not to derail conversation about TD but I'm curious what you're plugging the K & K into when it sounds like that? preamp? mixer?

Over the years, I've went straight to mixer, Boss GE-7 (1 meg ohm), Empress ParaEQ (1 Meg Ohm), DTAR Solstice (10 Meg Ohm). I understand that input high impedance increased bass response?

[caballero59]

Originally Posted by martingitdave

Did your ToneDexter wave map sound like your guitar played into the same vocal mic? If so, then it did it's job perfectly. If not, then you may prefer the immediacy of the Tak system you are used to.

I think this may be the key. When monitoring during training, I was never in love with the mic sound. In fact, a pickup usually sounds at least as good or better than a vocal mic stuck in front of the sound hole so no magic dust with the mic. But even so, the wave map seemed to have a bit more of a hollow sound. A small difference doesn't surprise me when one considers all the compromises that TD must make to incorporate a 1.5 minute training session into a 200 mil sec wave sample. You can tell that it is sure trying.

[caballero59]

The immediacy is an interesting idea to contemplate. I roll off some of this immediacy with a compressor on the Tak but I don't want it to sound like its coming from another room.

I really want TD to work. The concept and operational form of TD is what we have been waiting for for years.

[martingitdave]

Originally Posted by caballlero59

The immediacy is an interesting idea to contemplate. I roll off some of this immediacy with a compressor on the Tak but I don't want it to sound like its coming from another room.

I really want TD to work. The concept and operational form of TD is what we have been waiting for for years.

I think you should grab a good small condenser mic from wherever you might be able to beg or borrow (I don’t condone stealing lol) and try a few positions. It’s important to realize that the software first makes a really good map. Then it alters the map to make it more feedback friendly. You can hear what TD is capable of on slot 22 without the alterations. If you like that sound then you can play with the character knob to either blend in so if the raw pickup, or remove some the feedback fighting character.

[Cuki79]

Unlike the others I am not sure the mic quality is "that" important... there are many posts from TD owners achieving great results from a SM58 or equivalent mic. ... also ND767a is a good mic.

There are many questions I want to ask
1) Do you look for a better plugged in tone or a more mic-like tone?

2) Did you play with the mic position? Putting the mic in front of the sound whole is not a good idea. Starts with the mic in front of the 12th fret?

3) Were the cool tube off? and the compressor?

Tonedexter is making Impulse responses (IR): It's a LINEAR process, any nonlinearity coming from a tube or a compressor will compromise the process.

When the response is 1:1 you get the light blue linear response (straight line). The more the ratio increase x:1 the more it compresses and the less linear you will be.

Here is also a link with the transfert function of the tube power amp response with different bias.
https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threa...be-bias.79049/

Once again, what brings the tube is nonlinearity.

Tonedexter and IR convolution can not be trained if there is linearity.

Why?

Well what IR does is simulate the response of your guitar top


So for example if your pickup is an under saddle transducer (UST), it will barely sens mode TB(7) (see figure). Why? As you see on the picture TB(7) (resonance 332 Hz) the mode amplitude is green at the saddle (almost null). So this mode will be barely sensed by the UST... However it will probably still radiate sounds to the microphone.

Tonedexter will measure the sound at that frequency on the microphone and realize that much less sound at that frequency comes from the pickup... so it will arrange the IR so that this 332 Hz frequency is slightly boosted to "simulate" TB(7) mode.

What happens if there is nonlinearity?

Well nonlinearity, like for example distortion will creates harmonics. Meaning if you play a note at 166 Hz it will add harmonics content at 166x2=332 Hz, 166x3=498Hz...

Tonedexter or any IR process have no clue if the 332 Hz signal comes from your fingers or from the tube/compressor nonlinear effect.

As a result, it will have difficulties to work properly.

my 2 cents,
Cuki

[shufflebeat]

Originally Posted by Cuki79

Unlike the others I am not sure the mic quality is "that" important... there are many posts from TD owners achieving great results from a SM58 or equivalent mic. ... also ND767a is a good mic.

+1

I found a sweet spot for every mic I've tried so far, no two the same. Many decent recordings have been achieved with a '57 in the right place.

@OP - Eliminating the obvious, during training are you monitoring the mic sound or the wavemap as it develops?

[caballero59]

I appreciate the helpful responses here. I had the Cooltube contribution set to 50% so I will turn that off because the "warmth" of the tube is non-linear distortion.