New to Classical- Guitar advice

[fpuhan]

Originally Posted by georgeMC

I sympathize with you regarding your hands. I used to have that issue when I lived in NY. Since moving to Florida it all disappeared.

I've heard good things about the C5 and actually played a CK at GC. I almost bought it then but opted for the C12, thinking it would be better.

One problem with buying from the stores is, most, if not all were not set up properly. The action was way too high on most.

I've never bought from GC. The $500 I have is a retirement gift from my employer. Were it not for free money, I wouldn't have even considered buying another guitar (if you're curious, see my sig). So, this may come as a stupid question, but will GC set up a guitar for you as part of the purchase transaction?

[rmp]

Intonation on classicals is the reason I blew thru about 4 of them before I bought a Taylor 500 series, which ended the drama.


and these weren't crappy models either, I tried Takamine, Manuel Rodriquez, Yamaha (twice)

[georgeMC]

Originally Posted by RJVB

That's not to say that nylon strings can't have "weaker sections". They're extruded, which can (and often does) lead to fluctuating diameters along the length of a string. The result is that sometimes you put on a new string that doesn't intonate correctly, but does when you reinstall it the other way round. Some brands use a laser-controlled quality check for this, and a few offer rectified strings that are polished to a much tighter gauge constancy.
NB: the vast majority of brands do not run their own extruders, just like the vast majority of steel string manufacturers don't pull their own wire.

Fascinating information. It appears the differences between classical guitars and steel string acoustics goes way beyond just wider necks and nylon strings. Thanks for the education!

[georgeMC]

Originally Posted by Jamolay

I am surprised you had such a hard time finding a decent classical guitar. Lots of good used ones out there for less than a C12. I guess at least GC has a good return policy.

Yes it was difficult. They did not have a large selection to begin with. The reason I went with GC was because they had a bunch online that were not in the stores and if you don't like it when it arrives you have 45 days to return it.

[mr. beaumont]

Originally Posted by RJVB

True, but



The most likely effect of (not being used to) a high action is that the intonation becomes sharp. It's possible to make nylon strings go flat but that requires that you push the string towards the saddle while you fret the note. Doesn't seem like the most naturally occurring error to make to me (and I couldn't tell right now if the same amount of pushing would make notes go flatter when you go up the neck).

A classical should not have an audible difference between the note and the harmonic at 12th fret. If it does there is at the least a set-up problem that should have been caught by the seller. Give the strings a few days to stabilise so a single note won't go flat while played for a minute, take if of and reinstall it backwards to see if that makes a difference (see below), and then contact GC. Best do that within whatever return window they have because Cordoba is likely to refuse any gesture because they'll deem the instrument to be "in spec".

Re: stretching: there's a lot of voodoo about that topic out there. Check Aquila's instructional videos: if they (about the only company doing serious R&D on (classical) strings) recommend stretching their strings (considerably!) at the 12th fret I think we can assume it is a safe procedure. Alternative: tune it up half a step (something I never yet dared to do).

That's not to say that nylon strings can't have "weaker sections". They're extruded, which can (and often does) lead to fluctuating diameters along the length of a string. The result is that sometimes you put on a new string that doesn't intonate correctly, but does when you reinstall it the other way round. Some brands use a laser-controlled quality check for this, and a few offer rectified strings that are polished to a much tighter gauge constancy.
NB: the vast majority of brands do not run their own extruders, just like the vast majority of steel string manufacturers don't pull their own wire.

You are 100% correct, I missed that the issue was specifically notes being flat.

[rick-slo]

I mainly played a classical guitar in my younger decades. I found many classical guitars wanting in lower to higher note frequency balance. Trebles were often weak with short sustain.
Before long I did end up buying an excellent 1968 Ramirez 1-A and then all was well in the classical guitar music world.

A bit odd to have just one string (in this case the B string) intonate progressively flatter going up the neck. On thing you could try is to use a heavier gauge string B which may well
improve the intonation in this case.

[georgeMC]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

I mainly played a classical guitar in my younger decades. I found many classical guitars wanting in lower to higher note frequency balance. Trebles were often weak with short sustain.
Before long I did end up buying an excellent 1968 Ramirez 1-A and then all was well in the classical guitar music world.

A bit odd to have just one string (in this case the B string) intonate progressively flatter going up the neck. On thing you could try is to use a heavier gauge string B which may well
improve the intonation in this case.

Yes I noticed that also with the higher strings and every one I played was the same.
The D string is also a bit flat at the 12th fret.

Going to check it out tomorrow at GC. Will post results

[RJVB]

Originally Posted by rmp

Intonation on classicals is the reason I blew thru about 4 of them before I bought a Taylor 500 series, which ended the drama.

And that's not a classical. I've never had the chance to play one of their nylon stringers but the available recordings have given me the strong impression they're no match to a classical of comparable quality (aka price) in term of sound volume and (often) tone.

CGs usually do not have a micro-intonated saddle, in part because there's the idea that nylon strings are so elastic that it would be overkill. If a string intonates sharp it's often possible to improve things considerably by compensating at the nut with a piece of bone (or even bamboo) under the string.

Originally Posted by georgeMC

Fascinating information. It appears the differences between classical guitars and steel string acoustics goes way beyond just wider necks and nylon strings.

You're welcome, but actually that was all about the strings

Originally Posted by rick-slo

I mainly played a classical guitar in my younger decades. I found many classical guitars wanting in lower to higher note frequency balance. Trebles were often weak with short sustain.

Well, that too is in the strings, sadly. Nylon is a soft and light material: it already has a lot of internal damping of itself which is only made worse by the fact strings need to be a lot thicker - the famous inharmonicity problem. That damping doesn't do the sustain of higher frequencies any good. Exactly the reason why quite a few players use a carbon G string because those sound less "tubby".
On that Ramirez 1a you problably had better trebles thanks to its long scale (660 or 670?) which means you can attain a given tension with a thinner gauge string than would be required on a short scale guitar. For comparison: long-scale bass guitars are reputed to sound brighter (presumable for the same reason) ... but the few Ramirez 1a I have heard sound very dark (and fuzzy/boomy) to my ears

Personally I use Aquila Rubino trebles because of this: the metal dust with which they're loaded increases their density so they can be thinner. They're bright but at the same time warmer (less clinical/sharp) than carbon strings.
(BTW, carbonfluor is a misnomer; those strings are actually made of PVDC.)

[georgeMC]

Well here's the update.

The Cordoba C12 was returned. The tech at GC said the saddle was causing the intonation problem and he recommended returning it and getting a replacement guitar.

It will be coming next week. Just keeping my fingers crossed that there is no problem with that one.

Thanks so much for all of your responses!

[Rudy4]

Originally Posted by georgeMC

Well here's the update.

The Cordoba C12 was returned. The tech at GC said the saddle was causing the intonation problem and he recommended returning it and getting a replacement guitar.

It will be coming next week. Just keeping my fingers crossed that there is no problem with that one.

Thanks so much for all of your responses!

Any idea how the "tech" determined that?

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by RJVB

Well, that too is in the strings, sadly. Nylon is a soft and light material: it already has a lot of internal damping of itself which is only made worse by the fact strings need to be a lot thicker - the famous inharmonicity problem. That damping doesn't do the sustain of higher frequencies any good.

I have posted quite a bit over the years about inharmonicity. Much less of an issue in nylon strings than steel strings which is why the saddle on a classical guitar is straight and angled just slightly and not (or rarely) compensated separately for different strings.

Acoustic impedance is higher in nylon strings than in steel strings and increases more rapidly as wavelengths get shorter. Personally I like that in a well made classical guitar (less sizzle that you can sometimes get with steel strings).

[georgeMC]

Originally Posted by Rudy4

Any idea how the "tech" determined that?

He began by stretching the strings and then re-tuned. Played each note from the first position to the 12th. He did agree that, from the 6th fret up, it progressively got flatter.

He said something about the saddle not having notches but then said not all have notches. His conclusion was that the distance between the saddle and nut was off just enough to cause the problem.

He was not any more specific than that.

[RJVB]

Originally Posted by georgeMC

He said something about the saddle not having notches but then said not all have notches.

Did you ask what he meant with notches? Some builders (and yours truly) make tiny notches in the saddle to prevent the strings from being able to slide over the top (steel strings typically make such notches by themselves in my experience) but those shouldn't have any effect on intonation.

Anyway, with luck they'll remember to check the next one for intonation (or other issues) before they call you or ship it off to you!

[mr. beaumont]

Originally Posted by georgeMC

He began by stretching the strings...

AAARRRGHHH!

[Rudy4]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

AAARRRGHHH!

A HUGE ditto on that. A dead giveaway of someone who's mainly used to steel string guitars.

It's what I kind of expected as the answer to my question. No offense to GC, but their bread and butter is selling stuff to prospective head bangers.

A "tech" that has proper pitches associated with a string up to the 6th fret and THEN starts to go progressively flatter probably needs to put a bit more thought into a diagnosis of "saddle position".