New to Classical- Guitar advice

[georgeMC]

Hello, I'm new to this site and new to classical guitar.

Been playing steel string acoustic and electric for about 50 years.

I recently purchased my first classical guitar and was pretty surprised at how difficult it was to find a decent one locally. Almost every one I played was either unplayable and/or of questionable sound.

I felt I had no choice but to buy a a model from Guitar Center that they did not stock in the store. It is a Cordoba C12.

This guitar seems to have an intonation issue.
I've read on other message boards that intonation is never perfect, however my steel strings are really, really close if not dead on.

I did recently replaced the strings and it did not change.

On this guitar I'm finding the B string tonation getting progressively worse (flatter) from the 7th fret and higher.

My question for any experienced classical players is, are my expectations too high for a classical guitar in this price range ($1800 new) or should I return it and look for a different guitar of better quality.

Unfortunately I do not have the luxury of playing before buying. The local stores only have bottom end ones in stock.

Thanks for any advice.
George

[TBman]

I have a C12 and the intonation is fine. You should bring that guitar back to GC.

[georgeMC]

That's really good to know. Thanks!

[fpuhan]

Not an answer to your question, but I'm interested in this thread because we are much alike in background and experience. My reason for interest in classical guitar is for hand relief -- winter plays havoc on my hands, drying them and cracking, even with lotions and treatment.

I've been researching nylon string guitars for $500 or less (because I have that much in gift cards at GC). One of the candidates is the Cordoba C5-CE SP. It checks all the boxes for me (Engelmann Spruce/Mahogany, cutaway, Fishman Presys II). Cordoba generally gets good reviews here on AGF even though they are made in China, where QA can be an issue. Let us know how things progress.

[mr. beaumont]

If it's really off I'd return it.

Classical guitars are much more finicky when it comes to intonation. Some of it is controlled with your hands, believe it or not.

A guitar set up for true classical playing can be difficult for a beginner to play in tune up the neck...the issue is that the higher action coupled with a string that is very susceptible to sounding out of tune if not played cleanly. You might find that just playing the note sounds ok and then when you play that same note in a piece or as part of a chord, it's suddenly off...

If you are fretting cleanly and with just enough pressure to sound the note cleanly and the intonation is still off, then something else is up.

I love nylon string guitars, but not being a true classical player I use a lower action (about 2.5mm bass side) and I have better intonation this way than if I struggled with a higher action.

[TBman]

I'm like Jeff where I'm not a true classical player. I have the setups on my nylons low like my steel strings. Just fyi.

[Gitfiddlemann]

Hi George, and welcome to the forum.
I don't consider myself a true classical player either, but I do play a lot of it, and also have a nice classical guitar. FWIW, I agree with both the above posters, especially too since Barry owns one of these C12 models.
If the intonation is that off, there's potentially something wrong with the build. It's best to return it.
My own classical has much higher action than my steel strings, and yet it intonates just as well.
Try the guitar out first if you can. On the guitar, play the natural harmonic on the 12th fret of each string, followed by the fretted note. They should be spot on. If not, that's a flag. And this method is also not as technique dependent as what Jeff was describing, which I agree with. Or, take a clip-on tuner with you to check the intonation on various spots.
Bottom line though is, if you pay that kind of money, you're entitled to a classical guitar that intonates well.

[georgeMC]

I sympathize with you regarding your hands. I used to have that issue when I lived in NY. Since moving to Florida it all disappeared.

I've heard good things about the C5 and actually played a CK at GC. I almost bought it then but opted for the C12, thinking it would be better.

One problem with buying from the stores is, most, if not all were not set up properly. The action was way too high on most.

[georgeMC]

Hi Gitfiddlemann

Thanks for the repl!. I did most of what you suggested already. My last step was the clip on tuner which only confirmed what I thought I was hearing.
I guess I'll be going back to GC tomorrow

BTW. Nice job on the piece on Youtube playing the Cervantes Crossover. The guitar sounded really nice too.

[Jamolay]

I am surprised you had such a hard time finding a decent classical guitar. Lots of good used ones out there for less than a C12. I guess at least GC has a good return policy.

I am selling a Kremona 90th Anniversary if you are interested!

Or look on the Delcamp forum, there are some nice ones available there.

[Rudy4]

Originally Posted by georgeMC

Hello, I'm new to this site and new to classical guitar.

Been playing steel string acoustic and electric for about 50 years.

I recently purchased my first classical guitar and was pretty surprised at how difficult it was to find a decent one locally. Almost every one I played was either unplayable and/or of questionable sound.

I felt I had no choice but to buy a a model from Guitar Center that they did not stock in the store. It is a Cordoba C12.

This guitar seems to have an intonation issue.
I've read on other message boards that intonation is never perfect, however my steel strings are really, really close if not dead on.

I did recently replaced the strings and it did not change.

On this guitar I'm finding the B string tonation getting progressively worse (flatter) from the 7th fret and higher.

My question for any experienced classical players is, are my expectations too high for a classical guitar in this price range ($1800 new) or should I return it and look for a different guitar of better quality.

Unfortunately I do not have the luxury of playing before buying. The local stores only have bottom end ones in stock.

Thanks for any advice.
George

The C12 is an upper tier guitar in the Cordoba range. It would be rare that there was a problem with the actual construction of the instrument. It's more likely to be setup, improper technique, or false strings due to improper installation.

If you are not familiar with changing nylon strings DO be aware that "stretching" them is often the cause of strings that don't intonate correctly. Once the string is "stretched" it can result in weaker sections along the string which only gets worse as the strings settle in.

The better thing to do is tune at most a half step high and let them settle in naturally over a few days.

I'm much more comfortable on a slightly narrower fretboard and the Cordoba Cadete is one of my favorite guitars, having a smaller overall size and reduced string tension.

[georgeMC]

Thanks so much for all of your replies!
It's been a huge help.

mr. beaumont. Your post was right on the money regarding the finickiness of classical guitars; as I am discovering now.

Being new to this type of guitar was the reason I questioned my suspicions. I wasn't sure if it's just the nature of the beast or something I should have corrected.

Based on most of the opinions and info you have all provided, I think my best option would be to bring it back to GC and see if they can provide an answer for me.

Thank you!

[Aspiring]

To be more explicit than some of the above, one of the things that shocked me when I started playing classical is just how much impact on intonation your fretting hand has.

For fun try using a tuner that shows cents and watch how much you can move the note at a given fret by both the amount of pressure you use and how you press (ie angled straight down to the side of to the nut or bridge end)

Then try it again near the 12th fret. Where you fret relative to the fret also can have a large impact.

At this point I can easily move the pitch a full semi tone either way without actually doing a traditional steel string bend.

That is a lot of the reason that I believe classicals haven't embraced compensated saddles as the player can learn to compensate with technique and the strings as posted above can have a lot more variance.

[RJVB]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

A guitar set up for true classical playing can be difficult for a beginner to play in tune up the neck...the issue is that the higher action coupled with a string that is very susceptible to sounding out of tune if not played cleanly. You might find that just playing the note sounds ok and then when you play that same note in a piece or as part of a chord, it's suddenly off...

True, but

Originally Posted by georgeMC

On this guitar I'm finding the B string tonation getting progressively worse (flatter) from the 7th fret and higher.

The most likely effect of (not being used to) a high action is that the intonation becomes sharp. It's possible to make nylon strings go flat but that requires that you push the string towards the saddle while you fret the note. Doesn't seem like the most naturally occurring error to make to me (and I couldn't tell right now if the same amount of pushing would make notes go flatter when you go up the neck).

A classical should not have an audible difference between the note and the harmonic at 12th fret. If it does there is at the least a set-up problem that should have been caught by the seller. Give the strings a few days to stabilise so a single note won't go flat while played for a minute, take if of and reinstall it backwards to see if that makes a difference (see below), and then contact GC. Best do that within whatever return window they have because Cordoba is likely to refuse any gesture because they'll deem the instrument to be "in spec".

Re: stretching: there's a lot of voodoo about that topic out there. Check Aquila's instructional videos: if they (about the only company doing serious R&D on (classical) strings) recommend stretching their strings (considerably!) at the 12th fret I think we can assume it is a safe procedure. Alternative: tune it up half a step (something I never yet dared to do).

That's not to say that nylon strings can't have "weaker sections". They're extruded, which can (and often does) lead to fluctuating diameters along the length of a string. The result is that sometimes you put on a new string that doesn't intonate correctly, but does when you reinstall it the other way round. Some brands use a laser-controlled quality check for this, and a few offer rectified strings that are polished to a much tighter gauge constancy.
NB: the vast majority of brands do not run their own extruders, just like the vast majority of steel string manufacturers don't pull their own wire.

[Gitfiddlemann]

Originally Posted by georgeMC

Hi Gitfiddlemann

Thanks for the repl!. I did most of what you suggested already. My last step was the clip on tuner which only confirmed what I thought I was hearing.
I guess I'll be going back to GC tomorrow

BTW. Nice job on the piece on Youtube playing the Cervantes Crossover. The guitar sounded really nice too.

Thank you. Cervantes does make a nice Crossover guitar if you come across one. The Crossover I is more like the traditional crossovers, i.e. more pronounced radius and narrower neck widths, whereas the II, which I have, has the flatter, wider classical neck which I prefer.
These Cervantes models used to be in the same price range as the upper tier Cordobas, but I'm not sure if that's still the case.
Regarding your guitar purchase, no reputable store should be displaying guitars with setup issues. Don't bring that headache home even if the problem can be easily fixed. (I'm not a big fan of GC, but that's just my personal opinion.)
It's true that technique matters more in a higher action classical guitar, but some guitars really do have a problem. Let your ears guide you, but still bring the tuner.