A huge change looks to be coming for the recording industry

[jim1960]

Originally Posted by KevWind

It appears that IF you Have a DAW that supports Atmos...then am I correct that you can still deliver an Atmos mix (albeit not verified by monitoring thru a dedicated multi speaker system)

I've been wondering the same thing... can I just produce a stereo master and somehow make it an Atmos mix that is recognized as such but plays as a stereo track on Atmos systems?

I don't know and I suspect I'd have to learn a whole lot before I'd even be able to remotely understand the answer. I feel like my head is six feet under water on this subject. If it does happen and you can't fake it, the investment is huge even if one has a capable interface since the system requires 4 atmos speakers and seven others plus a sub. On top of that, you'd have to have a suitable space and then you get to treatment... I suspect that would be another very expensive endeavor if an Atmos mixing room is treated differently than a stereo mixing room.

The more I think about it, the more I hope it's a novelty that doesn't pan out in the end. It's going to make the next year or three very interesting.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by jim1960

I've been wondering the same thing... can I just produce a stereo master and somehow make it an Atmos mix that is recognized as such but plays as a stereo track on Atmos systems?

I don't know and I suspect I'd have to learn a whole lot before I'd even be able to remotely understand the answer. I feel like my head is six feet under water on this subject. If it does happen and you can't fake it, the investment is huge even if one has a capable interface since the system requires 4 atmos speakers and seven others plus a sub. On top of that, you'd have to have a suitable space and then you get to treatment... I suspect that would be another very expensive endeavor if an Atmos mixing room is treated differently than a stereo mixing room.

The more I think about it, the more I hope it's a novelty that doesn't pan out in the end. It's going to make the next year or three very interesting.

Well if I am understanding the Pro Tools expert article I posted correctly ?? I think the answer is that you can (with just the software) produce an Atmos mix on our systems without having to purchase additional hardware.
Now I am guessing that if that is trie it might be easier to do in headphones then on a pair of monitors ??

The only confusing thing to me in the article is that it seems to contradict itself

because first it says ( under "Which DAWs Can I Use To Mix In Dolby Atmos ---" . Quote " Ableton Live is now the only DAW that doesn’t offer native integration of Dolby Atmos. Apple Logic Pro, Blackmagic Design’s DaVinci Resolve and Steinberg Nuendo offer a built-in Dolby Atmos Renderer, whereas, with Avid Pro Tools, you need to use the Dolby Atmos Production Suite, which Pro Tools users can get for a discount via Avid.


But a few paragraphs later under the free Dolby Music Panner plugin section it says ::

"Supported DAWs include Pro Tools, Logic Pro, DaVinci Resolve, Ableton Live and Nuendo." whats up with that ??

[jim1960]

Originally Posted by KevWind

Well if I am understanding the Pro Tools expert article I posted correctly ?? I think the answer is that you can (with just the software) produce an Atmos mix on our systems without having to purchase additional hardware.
Now I am guessing that if that is true ? it might be easier to do in headphones then on a pair of monitors ?? So OK I just watched the OP video and he states @ 6:30 that you can in fact do in headphones--- so there we are , however I think the process would be to mix in Atmos and then fold down to stereo !! @ 8:00 And interestingly he claims that the fold down to stereo sounded better than the original stereo master ???????????

The only confusing thing to me in the Pro Tools article is that it seems to contradict itself

because first it says ( under "Which DAWs Can I Use To Mix In Dolby Atmos ---" . Quote " Ableton Live is now the only DAW that doesn’t offer native integration of Dolby Atmos. Apple Logic Pro, Blackmagic Design’s DaVinci Resolve and Steinberg Nuendo offer a built-in Dolby Atmos Renderer, whereas, with Avid Pro Tools, you need to use the Dolby Atmos Production Suite, which Pro Tools users can get for a discount via Avid.


But a few paragraphs later under the free Dolby Music Panner plugin section it says ::

"Supported DAWs include Pro Tools, Logic Pro, DaVinci Resolve, Ableton Live and Nuendo." SO whats up with that ??

You and I have dived in at different places. I've been trying to wrap my head around what Atmos is and you've tried to wrap your head around whether you can do it with your rig. If you're asking me questions about making an Atmos mix with our Carbons, you're just putting your foot on my head and pushing me further under water.

I'd love to find a song mixed both ways to compare stereo to Atmos. I suspect those things will be coming along before too long.

PS... some exciting news from Avid today. PT 2023.3 is out. Here are the release notes:
New Features and Enhancements
Pro Tools® software version 2023.3 provides the following new features and enhancements:
• Apple Silicon fully supported
• Editing Improvements:
• Include Rulers with Edit Groups
• Tab to automation breakpoint
• Double-Click Selects Automation Breakpoints preference
• Edit Window Toolbar Quantize controls improvements
• Elastic Audio updates:
• Melodyne improvements on tick-based tracks
• élastique Pro V3 by zplane.development for Elastic Audio processing
• X-Form® (based on the Radius® algorithm from iZotope) native on Apple Silicon
• Bounce to M4A (Maconly)
• SyncX Video Generator Follows 10MHz Clock

[AcousticDreams]

Originally Posted by jim1960

Here's why I think it could work... cars.
For many people, their cars is where they listen to the most music. If the Atmos soundfield makes music more interesting and enjoyable. After spending some time yesterday investigating what Atmos actually is/does, I'm very curious to hear what it does for music. I'm not sure if it makes it better or just different without actually improving the experience, but I'd like to find out.

Some people thought stereo wasn't going to catch on.
AM is king and FM is never going to find an audience.

Actually when you think about it, Stereo is kind of a problem in cars. Unless we balance the stereo knob, the driver hears the sound of the left a little bit more. And the opposite for the passenger. One of reasons why those old mono hits from the 60's sound pretty clear in the automobile. And why some stereo songs where the guitar was a dedicated Right source gets lost and looses its context in the song. One such example is Pinball Wizard. 90% of the acoustic guitar intro comes from the Right speaker. Then the Bass& Electric enter on the Left side. Thus I loose the Acoustic guitar as a driver.

While I do no understanding how Atmos works, I am familiar with Surround sound concepts. Is it possible that Atmos would alleviate some of the audio car balance problems? It just might, as it requires using a total of four speakers.

How will Atmos encoded music translate, when played over the standard stereo field? For us old timers who plan on keeping their cars for 20 plus years.

[Doug Young]

I've been wanting to look into Atmos, so I watched the video yesterday. Struck me as one of those click-baity videos we see so much of these days. There's no official announcement from Apple, it's just "people are saying" :-) But the guy gets to talk a lot about how he handles it all for his clients, which may have been the point. That said, certainly Apple is supporting it, and it apparently works well with their upper end earbuds.

To me, the idea this will completely take over in the *short term* seems unrealistic. The real benefit is for people with 7.1 and better surround systems in their home theaters, and that's just not a huge portion of the world. I have a 5.1 system and a receiver that supports Atmos, but reading about how to set it up made it clear it wasn't something most people will bother with. (and oddly, tho one of Atmos's claims seems to be that it degrades to whatever system you have, apparently my 5.1 speaker setup won't work) I do see that there are a lot of devices out there that support it to some extent, but the claim someone made in a video (can't recall if it was the posted video or another one that popped up later) that even most grandmothers out there are listening to music on Atmos-enabled Smart Speakers these days struck me as being pretty unlikely. My mother's still listening to AM radio and cassettes :-), tho I'm sure she's not a target market for Atmos-enabled Billie Eilish.

Three other observations from my brief initial exploration:

1) I did check it out on Apple Music with regular earbuds, and on some music, it sounded better. Some of the classical orchestra stuff I tried was nicely enhanced. The non-Atmos mixes sounded flat and 1-dimensional after listening to the Atmos. However the various Beatle Atmos tracks all sounded worse than the stereo to me. It seems to me, at least based on this quick small survey, that how good it sounds depends on the mix, which isn't surprising. The difference, using earbuds, was also pretty subtle. I suspect a full speaker system would be more impressive, but the big trend these days is toward everyone listening in ear buds, and the effect just wasn't all that dramatic in that case.

2) It appears to me that, as Kev was asking, that if we were to need to deliver Atmos files, it's pretty easy to create. The Atmos file format is just "meta-data", and you can easily create a project in Logic (which I did), drop a stereo mix in it and there you go, you have an Atmos file. Doesn't take advantage of anything, but you have a stereo mix in an Atmos "container", not much different than the way various video formats are essentially different containers for the underlying video data.

3) Truly working with Atmos seems to be a pain in the butt because there's no simple way to play back an Atmos file. I can create one in Logic, but as best I can tell, there's no way for me to load it onto my phone, play it back over my stereo, play it in my car, etc. That may change if this becomes standard, but right now the whole thing feels like it's still early in the game - even if I went to a studio that had great Atmos support, I'd go home with a file I couldn't listen to. You do get a glimpse of it being seamless with Apple music - if I have it enabled on my phone and am listening thru earbuds that are configured properly, then I just hit play and it works without me being fully aware that it's Atmos at all. And perhaps this is the point of the "scare", it may be a way big players can take back control over the whole thing, since the only way to even listen to an Atmos track, at this point, at least, is to release it thru a streaming service.

[jim1960]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

Truly working with Atmos seems to be a pain in the butt because there's no simple way to play back an Atmos file. I can create one in Logic, but as best I can tell, there's no way for me to load it onto my phone, play it back over my stereo, play it in my car, etc.

What?... you don't want to run out and buy nine more monitors?

If it does become commonplace in cars, buying new car might be a future studio upgrade for some people.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by jim1960

What?... you don't want to run out and buy nine more monitors?

If it does become commonplace in cars, buying new car might be a future studio upgrade for some people.

Yeah, and my wife isn't keen on putting speakers in the ceiling either. The weird thing is that - and maybe I just haven't figured this out right - even if I had the 9 monitors, and the atmos-enabled car, it doesn't seem like I'd be able to play back an Atmos file. Yes, I could hear my Logic Atmos project properly over my 9 new speakers, but I can't play back the exported file, and there's no way to take that file to my car. I can't even load it into Apple Music and play it there, if I understand correctly.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by AcousticDreams

Actually when you think about it, Stereo is kind of a problem in cars. Unless we balance the stereo knob, the driver hears the sound of the left a little bit more. And the opposite for the passenger. One of reasons why those old mono hits from the 60's sound pretty clear in the automobile. And why some stereo songs where the guitar was a dedicated Right source gets lost and looses its context in the song. One such example is Pinball Wizard. 90% of the acoustic guitar intro comes from the Right speaker. Then the Bass& Electric enter on the Left side. Thus I loose the Acoustic guitar as a driver.

While I do no understanding how Atmos works, I am familiar with Surround sound concepts. Is it possible that Atmos would alleviate some of the audio car balance problems? It just might, as it requires using a total of four speakers.

How will Atmos encoded music translate, when played over the standard stereo field? For us old timers who plan on keeping their cars for 20 plus years.

Well back in the good ol' days

Actually when I sold consumer stereo (home and auto ) in the 70's I did both home and auto installations and always thought that the lower kick panel install location was very problematic for stereo sound, given few people listen with there ankles But yes the balance knob was paramount to get any decent stereo effect or even just an balance .. At least now days most car speakers are up at the dash level .. which helps ... some..

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

Yeah, and my wife isn't keen on putting speakers in the ceiling either. The weird thing is that - and maybe I just haven't figured this out right - even if I had the 9 monitors, and the atmos-enabled car, it doesn't seem like I'd be able to play back an Atmos file. Yes, I could hear my Logic Atmos project properly over my 9 new speakers, but I can't play back the exported file, and there's no way to take that file to my car. I can't even load it into Apple Music and play it there, if I understand correctly.

Humm ? I thought the whole point of the OP video is that with Apple Music you can (or will be ) able to upload it to Apple Music and play it back on a home or auto system (that is Atmos compatible ) ??

Not sure I understand what you mean can't play back the exported file

For example I have most of my CD collection loaded on to my iPhone in it's Apple Music App. And both cars and my trucks sound systems are blue tooth compatible and are 4 speaker systems . So I can play my iPhone music in the vehicles . I would assume it would be the same for an Atmos upload ? The question would be if the translation to the 4 speaker system would work or sound good compared to the stereo files I currently have on the phone .

But I do agree that it is not likely to be a "thing" or much change for at least 3 to 6 years

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by KevWind

Humm ? I thought the whole point of the OP video is that with Apple Music you can (or will be ) able to upload it to Apple Music and play it back on a home or auto system (that is Atmos compatible ) ??

Not sure I understand what you mean can't play back the exported file

For example I have most of my CD collection loaded on to my iPhone in it's Apple Music App. And both cars and my trucks sound systems are blue tooth compatible and are 4 speaker systems . So I can play my iPhone music in the vehicles . I would assume it would be the same for an Atmos upload ? The question would be if the translation to the 4 speaker system would work or sound good compared to the stereo files I currently have on the phone .

That does not appear to work. I do this all the time with stereo tracks. I can add them to my Apple library and then listen to them in the car where I have Apple Music (or via phone/Bluetooth). You don't appear to be able to add an Atmos file yourself to your own Apple music library. You can go thru a distributor that releases music in Atmos. Perhaps there's some way I haven't found - or perhaps that will change, but I found some explanations online that said it wasn't possible - it has to be processed by Apple first, and I tried to import the file I created in Logic, it won't import, and won't play. I can open the file in Adobe Audition, but it just shows up as a multi-track wav file.

So basically, that's my point - the workflow we're used to for listening to recorded files (as opposed to released streaming music) doesn't appear to work with this. Could change, could be that there will a different way to do it or additional steps to turn it into a playable file, or I could be misunderstanding or doing it wrong.

That's why I think the video's message is pre-mature at best. The infrastructure for Atmos to totally take over isn't there (yet).

[dnf777]

At the risk of sounding like the old man standing on his porch yelling and shaking his fist at passing cars, I'd say that I'm all for advancing technology....but NOT anything in excludes the vast majority of indie artists and low-budget studios. Some of my favorite and most-played tracks are in those categories.

ATMOS is fine, but I just dropped a wad of cash on a home audio system, and decided that I did NOT want speakers in the ceiling or pointing that way, so I get along just fine without it. And lets be real, probably 95+ percent of music is enjoyed through portable speakers, or car stereos with the windows rolled down. I think it will be a mistake if they only allow ATMOS uploads. but then again, the music business has always emphasized the business, and not the music.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by dnf777

I think it will be a mistake if they only allow ATMOS uploads.

If I understood the video, the claim was that the rumor was :-) that Apple would only *Playlist* Atmos releases, not that they would only allow uploads of Atmos. In other words, (if true) Apple wants to promote the format, which works well with their hardware - they're looking for more content that will help them sell high end earbuds!. But most small artists aren't going to get on Apple's official playlists anyway. And no announcement from Apple that this is true at all, tho just like Spotify, the criteria for getting on an official playlist is shrouded in mystery anyway.

[jim1960]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

If I understood the video, the claim was that the rumor was :-) that Apple would only *Playlist* Atmos releases, not that they would only allow uploads of Atmos. In other words, (if true) Apple wants to promote the format, which works well with their hardware - they're looking for more content that will help them sell high end earbuds!. But most small artists aren't going to get on Apple's official playlists anyway. And no announcement from Apple that this is true at all, tho just like Spotify, the criteria for getting on an official playlist is shrouded in mystery anyway.

I'm so behind on this even where Apple Music is concerned. I'm still an iPod guy (until the iPhone 15 comes out and I ditch Android) so I have some questions just so I understand how things work there...

1. Does Apple Music create their own playlists?
2. Does Apple Music allow subscribers to create their own playlists?
3. If yes is the answer to the second question, is it your impression that Apple Music won't allow non-Atmos tracks to be selected for subscriber-created playlists?

[Joe Beamish]

Originally Posted by Chipotle

I recently posted elsewhere ranting about how Apple often makes changes designed to exclude. Their iMessage service (security concerns aside), the HEIC photo format, now this. As an IT Guy, I can say that all the big companies suck in their own way, but Jobs World takes it to a new level.

Though it’s actually a post-Jobs World.

[dnf777]

Originally Posted by jim1960

I'm so behind on this even where Apple Music is concerned. I'm still an iPod guy (until the iPhone 15 comes out and I ditch Android) so I have some questions just so I understand how things work there...

1. Does Apple Music create their own playlists?
2. Does Apple Music allow subscribers to create their own playlists?
3. If yes is the answer to the second question, is it your impression that Apple Music won't allow non-Atmos tracks to be selected for subscriber-created playlists?

1. Yes. As Doug mentioned, its a mystery as to how.
2. Yes. Its a great feature.
3. Not sure, but I certainly hope so. Cant imagine they could (would) prohibit that.

Jim, I have joined and embraced AppleMusic as an inevitable new way of consuming music. I still purchase vinyl (or even the fleeting CD) as a way of supporting unsigned artists or mom-n-pop studios, on occasion. My fear is that once consumers become dependant on the various streaming services, they will begin steep subscription fee increases, and we will either pony up to their demands, or our music libraries will go “poof”.