Neck Attachment Hardware

[Rudy4]

Originally Posted by redir

I copy their original design with the butt joint and wood inserts but use a cross grain dowel in the heel. I don't think they did that originally and it's an improvement on it. What they do now is entirely different.

Copy the current version NT joint. That's the nuts!

[Rudy4]

Originally Posted by redir

I don't understand this, could you explain your process for drilling the holes of your neck joint? How do you mate the insert holes on the heel of the neck to the holes in the head block?

It's actually so simple it will make you cry.

The neck is completed with the two bolt locations wherever you want them to be. Measure the locations where they need to intersect the body mortise and drill the mating holes. Easy peasy.

This photo may help, but not everything is viewable. The barrel nuts are embedded vertically in the heel just behind the actual tenon. You can see the holes drilled in the heel block that the bolts will be inserted into from the inside of the body.

[CowhornShoehorn]

Originally Posted by Shuksan

This is where reverse spot facer tools like this one:https://elevatelutherie.com/product/...t_counterbore/ or similar tools you can get from MCS come in.

You drill the bolt holes through the head block. Then you insert the reverse spot facer shaft (same diameter than the bolt holes) through the bolt holes from the inside of the body and attached a drill to the shaft outside the body. Operate the drill while pulling out on the drill and the spot facer bit cuts a nice clean counterbore with no tearout on the inside of the head block. So, no need to pre-plan the counterbore locations.

Yep, that's it exactly.

[CowhornShoehorn]

Originally Posted by Rudy4

It's actually so simple it will make you cry.

The neck is completed with the two bolt locations wherever you want them to be. Measure the locations where they need to intersect the body mortise and drill the mating holes. Easy peasy.

This photo may help, but not everything is viewable. The barrel nuts are embedded vertically in the heel just behind the actual tenon. You can see the holes drilled in the heel block that the bolts will be inserted into from the inside of the body.

No problem lining up existing bolt holes from the tenon into the mortise and vise versa, but how do you determine where to put the bolt holes in the tenon so they line up with the vertically positioned nuts in the heel?

[Rudy4]

Originally Posted by CowhornShoehorn

No problem lining up existing bolt holes from the tenon into the mortise and vise versa, but how do you determine where to put the bolt holes in the tenon so they line up with the vertically positioned nuts in the heel?

Again, "The neck is completed with the two bolt locations wherever you want them to be."

The holes in the tenon are located and drilled as part of the process of installing the barrel nuts in the neck heel. Here's another photo that might clarify that process a bit more. In this case it's a different type of instrument using a single bolt connection, but my guitars incorporate two bolts. The procedure for installing the barrel nuts in the heel are the same, though.

I glue the connector nuts in place which means I can remove the bolts to have complete access to the heel for shaping, cutting the tenon, or whatever else I want to do. That way there's no need to be concerned that the barrel nut's tapped hole will be in proper alignment for whatever attachment bolt I choose to use. (I now use 25/64" that is a better match for the barrel nut diameter.)

[phavriluk]

A whole bunch of effort is being spent on dealing with a tenon carved out of the neck. That needn't be.

A whole lot of that effort is avoided by using a floating tenon glued in after the neck angle is cut on the table saw. And the bolt holes? Rout the mortise for the tenon into the neck block using the router table, slip in the tenon, match drill the tenon to the neck block. Glue the tenon into the neck in a second step'. Make room for the soundboard. Fine-tune the top edge at will.

Assemble at leisure, the bolts line up. And countersink relief for bolts/washers can be drilled into the back of the neck block on the drill press using the bolt holes as pilots.

[Rudy4]

Originally Posted by phavriluk

A whole bunch of effort is being spent on dealing with a tenon carved out of the neck. That needn't be.

A whole lot of that effort is avoided by using a floating tenon glued in after the neck angle is cut on the table saw. And the bolt holes? Rout the mortise for the tenon into the neck block using the router table, slip in the tenon, match drill the tenon to the neck block. Glue the tenon into the neck in a second step'. Make room for the soundboard. Fine-tune the top edge at will.

Assemble at leisure, the bolts line up. And countersink relief for bolts/washers can be drilled into the back of the neck block on the drill press using the bolt holes as pilots.

If you're going to go that route then skip the mortise and tenon altogether. You can add a couple of short non-glued 1/2" dowels for alignment purposes that can be pulled out for heel face work and stuck in when it's time to bolt the neck on. The advantage is not needing to cut the shallow mortise in the heel that further weakens the heel area. I've seen far too many heels cracked from not having any meat in back of the heel, particularly on those guitars that feature a tiny heel exposure.

I like the additional comfort level I get from the solid heel / tenon, but I do understand it makes fitting a bit more cumbersome. Nothing like the wackiness of fitting a conventional dovetail, though.

[phavriluk]

I use the floating tenon so as to have the grain of the tenon run at 90 degrees to the neck grain, from fingerboard to heel, kinda' like what is achieved by drilling for a dowel.

[Shuksan]

Originally Posted by Rudy4

It's actually so simple it will make you cry.

The neck is completed with the two bolt locations wherever you want them to be. Measure the locations where they need to intersect the body mortise and drill the mating holes. Easy peasy.

This photo may help, but not everything is viewable. The barrel nuts are embedded vertically in the heel just behind the actual tenon. You can see the holes drilled in the heel block that the bolts will be inserted into from the inside of the body.

I don't know it this would work for your tenon setup, but you can determine the locations for the bolt holes in the head block without having to measure anything by using dowel centers in the bolt holes in the tenon. Put a dowel center in each bolt hole in the tenon, put the neck into the body with the fretboard against the top of the body, and give the heel a light tap with a rubber mallet. The dowel centers leave a mark exactly at the center of each bolt hole position on the head block. It's fast and accurate and eliminates any possibility of error due to any errors in measuring.

I don't have a neck in progress right now to take a photo so here's a photo of dowel centers in the tenon of the rotisserie I attach the body to when applying finish.

[IMG][/IMG]

[Rudy4]

Originally Posted by Shuksan

I don't know it this would work for your tenon setup, but you can determine the locations for the bolt holes in the head block without having to measure anything by using dowel centers in the bolt holes in the tenon. Put a dowel center in each bolt hole in the tenon, put the neck into the body with the fretboard against the top of the body, and give the heel a light tap with a rubber mallet. The dowel centers leave a mark exactly at the center of each bolt hole position on the head block. It's fast and accurate and eliminates any possibility of error due to any errors in measuring.

I don't have a neck in progress right now to take a photo so here's a photo of dowel centers in the tenon of the rotisserie I attach the body to when applying finish.

[IMG][/IMG]

I use dowel centers for various projects, but notice I have a tee nut extension that drops down through the popsicle brace and holds the fretboard extension to the body. That prevents the use of dowel centers because the neck slides down vertically from the top before the tenon bolts are added. Dowel centering pins also don't work well if you use oversized holes as I do.

Measuring is not difficult, though.

[Fathand]

Originally Posted by phavriluk

A whole bunch of effort is being spent on dealing with a tenon carved out of the neck. That needn't be.

A whole lot of that effort is avoided by using a floating tenon glued in after the neck angle is cut on the table saw. And the bolt holes? Rout the mortise for the tenon into the neck block using the router table, slip in the tenon, match drill the tenon to the neck block. Glue the tenon into the neck in a second step'. Make room for the soundboard. Fine-tune the top edge at will.

Assemble at leisure, the bolts line up. And countersink relief for bolts/washers can be drilled into the back of the neck block on the drill press using the bolt holes as pilots.

Is there a picture somewhere of a floating tenon? I'm rying to visualize that. Thanks

[phavriluk]

Sorry, I don't have any pictures, and I don't know of any; I'd have to look around, too.

[redir]

This stuff is difficult to discuss in words.

Rudy, if I understand you correctly you drill a hole the same diameter as the barrel inserts in and along the length of the heel, or tenon, and they then can slide to what ever position is necessary for the two holes that you drill in the head block?

[Shuksan]

Originally Posted by Fathand

Is there a picture somewhere of a floating tenon? I'm rying to visualize that. Thanks

Here's one example of a floating tenon:

[IMG][/IMG]

[IMG][/IMG]

[phavriluk]

Sure is a treat to see such neat and careful work. Nice!