Replacement Cone for Resonator

[stuiji]

Hi,

First time poster so please be gentle [emoji4].

Picked up a Vintage Resonator 2nd hand and promptly tuned it to FACFAF. Terrible distortion ensued, cone collapsed somewhat.

Question is what would be the best replacement? I read on here someone thought replacing with a National cone improved the sound within 90% of an actual National guitar.

Would anyone else be willing to share their experience of swapping cones?

Many thanks in advance.

[dilver]

Quarterman resonator cones are a standard choice.

[TobyB]

Very pleased with R C Delta cones in my resonators
http://www.deltaresonatorcones.co.uk/

[Robin, Wales]

Welcome to the forum!

When you say "Vintage" do you mean the UK brand imported by JHS? I think that their resonators are from the AMG factory. I'm not sure that a National cone will fit - or is actually required.

Your best bet is to ask this question on the Michael Messer forum. There is likely to be someone there who has worked on those specific guitars. I would expect that a Continental cone may fit. The Quarterman spider bridge cones are great but their biscuit bridge ones are not - the Continental ones are better. However, that AMG may be Korean, so the sizing could be awkward. Possibly an Ozark brand cone may be your only option.

Anyway, much of a resonators sound comes from the biscuit and bridge. Switch those to maple and you'll get closer to an old National than spending a fortune on a US cone.

Good luck.

[Charlie Bernstein]

There are two styles: the modern spun cone and the old-time lug cone.

I think spun cones have more loud, smooth sustain, while stamped lug cones are more percussive and funkier.

Basically, if you like listening to the Brother Oswalds and Bukka Whites of the world, you'll want a lug cone, and if you like the sound of contemporaries like Jerry Douglas and Mark Knopfler, you'd probably like a spun cone. Make sure what you order is the right fit for your guitar.

For more info, you might ask on one of the resonator forums about the differences. I'm not an authority, and some of the folks on those forums are.

I replaced my ruined Dobro cone with a Quarterman and it sounds great — loud and punchy. Pretty sure my Red Line has a spun cone, too, and I love its voice. Lots of people upgrade their resos, especially with National or Beard hardware, and as I understand it, they end up sounding just like Nationals and Beards. I think the tendency is to use National parts for metal guitars and Beard for wood guitars. But again, the folks at the reso forums know more than I do.

For an example of what one person did with a cheap Rogue, here's the text of a classified ad one seller is running at one of the reso formus:

I have slashed the price to $389 to move this guitar! This resonator offer is better than new! Yes, it costs more than a new one ($328). But this one has been reworked. The cone and spider have been replaced with genuine Beard and Redline products ($115). A new maple/ebony bridge ($15) . . .

And so on. Other things worth knowing:

The wood just isn't that important, which is why solid-wood resos are rare. Laminate sounds fine, even for tops. I have a Don Gann all-solid reso. It sounds great, but no better than my two laminate resos.

These days, the fashion seems to be open sound wells rather than the traditional enclosed wells. Louder, more resonant. (The old, disproven theory was that a round enclosure under the resonator will project the sound forward. It won't.)

And some players get Weissenborns because of the volume and warmth the hollow neck creates.

But when you get right down to it, they all sound good. Different sounds, but no bad sounds. Upgrading mainly just makes the guitar louder. And since loudness is what resos are about, it's worth doing.

[rockabilly69]

I think I can add to this conversation, and clear up something that has been repeated more than once here.

Putting a National cone into another brand will not make it sound like a National.

I have done this three times with cheaper resonators, and own 4 more Nationals. In all three instances, the reso sounded LOUDER with the National cone, but not like a National, just a louder version of what is was, with maybe a little National flavor, but 90%? No way! One thing I also have to say is none of them were direct retrofits. I had to seriously modify some biscuits/saddles to get them to work. On two of the three I used new National biscuits.

On one of them, I actually preferred the tone of the stock cone over the National as this reso sounded great the day I got it. It was a Johnson knockoff of a National Style 0, and I think the stock cone was a Continental. That reso had a killer sound with stock cone. I've played many of these same resonators and none of them sounded similar. Mine was a freak of nature!

The original stock cone got crushed though and I had a National cone and biscuit lying around so I swapped the new parts in. This is the Johnson knockoff listen how the notes seems to swell https://www.soundclick.com/music/son...songID=6697257

[Charlie Bernstein]

Originally Posted by rockabilly69

I think I can add to this conversation, and clear up something that has been repeated more than once here.

Putting a National cone into another brand will not make it sound like a National.

I have done this three times with cheaper resonators, and own 4 more Nationals. In all three instances, the reso sounded LOUDER with the National cone, but not like a National, just a louder version of what is was, with maybe a little National flavor, but 90%? No way! One thing I also have to say is none of them were direct retrofits. I had to seriously modify some biscuits/saddles to get them to work. On two of the three I used new National biscuits.

On one of them, I actually preferred the tone of the stock cone over the National as this reso sounded great the day I got it. It was a Johnson knockoff of a National Style 0, and I think the stock cone was a Continental. That reso had a killer sound with stock cone. I've played many of these same resonators and none of them sounded similar. Mine was a freak of nature!

The original stock cone got crushed though and I had a National cone and biscuit lying around so I swapped the new parts in. This is the Johnson knockoff listen how the notes seems to swell https://www.soundclick.com/music/son...songID=6697257

Good to know. Thanks for chiming in!

[rockabilly69]

Originally Posted by Charlie Bernstein

The wood just isn't that important, which is why solid-wood resos are rare. Laminate sounds fine, even for tops. I have a Don Gann all-solid reso. It sounds great, but no better than my two laminate resos.

I forgot about the importance of laminates in resos.

Don Young (RIP), who founded the reformed National Resophonic, told me the reason they use laminate woods is because they want to take the resonance of solid wood out of the equation, and it makes for a better cone tone. I remember thinking how weird it was when I found out my National body and top were all laminates...

[RJVB]

Originally Posted by rockabilly69

I remember thinking how weird it was when I found out my National body and top were all laminates...

But it make perfect sense. (The cone of) a resonator guitar functions more or less like (the cone in) a loudspeaker box, and the body of the guitar should (thus) follow similar design criteria as a loudspeaker cabinet. Typically less thick to keep the weight down, though

I saw Beard now sell cones with a kind of protective coating. Can't remember if they also sell them for biscuit resos but will definitely research the option if I need to get a new one for mine. Who knew aluminium was magnetic ... to dust

[Robin, Wales]

Originally Posted by rockabilly69

On one of them, I actually preferred the tone of the stock cone over the National as this reso sounded great the day I got it. It was a Johnson knockoff of a National Style 0, and I think the stock cone was a Continental. That reso had a killer sound with stock cone. I've played many of these same resonators and none of them sounded similar. Mine was a freak of nature!

The original stock cone got crushed though and I had a National cone and biscuit lying around so I swapped the new parts in. This is the Johnson knockoff listen how the notes seems to swell https://www.soundclick.com/music/son...songID=6697257

The "trick" to those Continental cones is getting the set-up right. I have probably had my hands inside 800 or so of that style of guitar. Occasionally, one would come out of the factory sounding great - they all have that potential, they just need to be taken apart and re-built. You can tweak them to get a great tone. Scroll down here and have a listen to "Feelin Better Blues" in the video at the bottom of the page.

http://www.buskerguitars.co.uk/

[stuiji]

Wow, thanks everyone for the input.

Yes Robin, it is the UK brand Vintage, so it's a 9.5" biscuit cone that I need to replace. It already has a maple bridge.

I'm in the UK but can't seem to find anyone who stocks National or Beard cones, nor Quarterman, and the $55 postage is nearly the actual price of the cones themselves never mind the customs to add on!

Thanks TobyB for the heads up re RC Delta. Website last updated 2016 but pricing looks promising. Has anyone else used these, what's the sound like? Robin?

Charlie, all the cones I can find seem to be spun though I like the idea of a lug one if that's what Bukka used [emoji846]. I've started browsing reso hangout and Michael Messer forums, very useful info.

Thanks rockabilly69, helpfull to have your experience of swapping in Nationals and need for modification of the biscuit/saddles - I'll be prepared to send for the National biscuits if I go down that route.

Thanks again everyone, I'll let yous know how I get on.

S

[Robin, Wales]

The 9 1/2" radius is pretty standard across all the potential replacement cones. What changes is the cone height, and that's a figure that's not alway shown on the specs when you are looking for one.

It's worth measuring the height of the cone you have taken out!

There are a couple of UK reso guitar makers/suppliers who may have replacement cones. The Michael Messer forum would be the place to find them. I've not been involved for years so I'm not up to date with who is doing what now in the UK.

You should be able to get hold of a "Continental" cone. They are hand spun in China. The tooling came from Germany in the 90s - hence the Continental name. Knowing the Chinese reso makers, I expect that the same guy who was taught to spin the cones in the 90s is still doing it and supplying the whole industry!

[RJVB]

Originally Posted by stuiji

I'm in the UK but can't seem to find anyone who stocks National or Beard cones, nor Quarterman, and the $55 postage is nearly the actual price of the cones themselves never mind the customs to add on!

I remember exchanging with a UK vendor who assured me they always keep cones in stock that should be compatible with my Gretsch reso. That was a few years back though, quite possibly before Brexit so I can't for the life of me remember any names ... and by now I'd also be hit with tax and import duties ordering from them.

Originally Posted by Robin, Wales

The 9 1/2" radius is pretty standard across all the potential replacement cones. What changes is the cone height, and that's a figure that's not alway shown on the specs when you are looking for one.

It's worth measuring the height of the cone you have taken out!

And best do that before the thing collapses or sags ... Another thing to consider (no matter how minor the effect) is that the sound well is probably supported by the back, which over time will arch under that pressure. A very common effect on regular guitars, and mine has it just visible with the bare eye (and despite the low pressure from my nylon strings!), causing just enough loss of action height that she buzzes a little easier than before and that my fingers hit the cover plate just a bit more too (let alone when I try to use a pick).

Robin, did you ever find out where those Gretsch "AmpliSonic" cones come from? Their product pages claim (or claimed) eastern Europe, sounds like that may have to be read as "made on machines originallyfrom eastern Europe" (assuming we're talking that part of reunited Germany)?

(And re: the cover plate: have you ever come across one that has a scoop or cut-out for better finger/pick clearance?)