Torrefied top vs. non-torrefied top?

[Burstbucker]

Boucher has been a big promoter of torrefication of their tops but you have to choose the "Gold Pack" option if you want it. Those tops have a nice golden honey colour. I'm not sure if the torrefication process itself causes any darkening of the wood or if it's primarily that vintage toner that they use.

I just bought a Boucher OM hybrid, it's a Private Stock Maple model, so not one of Boucher's cheapest models, it's up there. This model has a very light coloured top, obviously no toner used on it and apparently the top is untreated, ie: non-torrefied top.

I'm not sure why Boucher Guitares woud use non-torrefied tops on their more expensive models if torrefication is really a big benefit. Maybe if the top wood that's been selected is of high enough quality and dry enough it negates the need to dry it out with the torrefication process?

Can somebody out there fill in the blanks for me?

[Dan Boggs]

The colour difference between Boucher's torrefied and non-torrified tops is 100% the result of the torrification process. Robin uses the same polyurethane finish technique on both, no vintage toner applied. He states the torrified tops have the same darker colour all the way through, not only on the surface.

All of Boucher's torrification is done right in your province at Thermalwood Canada in Bathurst, NB. The attached link is a very informative interview of Robin by Thermalwood's president (it is conducted in French, but the subtitles are easy to follow). Robin says his baked tops are more stable, sound better & more open and are currently used in 62% of his builds.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkJ6qF4n-4I&t=58s

I suspect Boucher decided to build the PS-SG-161 with an unbaked top as an esthetic choice as the paler top strikes me as a better visual match to the fantastic flamed maple of yours. One of my Boucher OMs has a torrified top and the other does not. Both sound and play exquisitely and I love them equally.

It appears that some of Boucher's most expensive builds are still done with untorrified tops indicated by this current Reverb listing of a Brazilian Rosewood dreadnought with an unbaked master grade adi top (asking $20K CDN!!) https://reverb.com/ca/item/56237355-...coustic-guitar

[llew]

I have two Boucher guitars...SG-21 (OM Adi/Bubinga) and SG-42-MG (Dread Adi/Mahogany) with a Master Grade top...neither are torrified. Both sound great. I'd guess on the Maple B&S customs Robin went with a standard (which is anything but?) top for a reason. I'm guessing they must not need it?

You OM Hybrid is a special guitar for sure...Beautiful visually and sonically I'm sure!

[Burstbucker]

Originally Posted by Dan Boggs

The colour difference between Boucher's torrefied and non-torrified tops is 100% the result of the torrification process. Robin uses the same polyurethane finish technique on both, no vintage toner applied. He states the torrified tops have the same darker colour all the way through, not only on the surface.

All of Boucher's torrification is done right in your province at Thermalwood Canada in Bathurst, NB. The attached link is a very informative interview of Robin by Thermalwood's president (it is conducted in French, but the subtitles are easy to follow). Robin says his baked tops are more stable, sound better & more open and are currently used in 62% of his builds.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkJ6qF4n-4I&t=58s

I suspect Boucher decided to build the PS-SG-161 with an unbaked top as an esthetic choice as the paler top strikes me as a better visual match to the fantastic flamed maple of yours. One of my Boucher OMs has a torrified top and the other does not. Both sound and play exquisitely and I love them equally.

It appears that some of Boucher's most expensive builds are still done with untorrified tops indicated by this current Reverb listing of a Brazilian Rosewood dreadnought with an unbaked master grade adi top (asking $20K CDN!!) https://reverb.com/ca/item/56237355-...coustic-guitar

Thanks Dan, you're probably spot on regarding them choosing to go with a non-torrefied top which is much lighter in colour so that it would match the figured flame maple back and sides, I never considered that possibility but it sounds logical now that you bring it up.

It's also interesting to hear that you have two Bouchers, one with torrefication and one without and you like the sound of both of them, great insight.

As far as my PS-SG-161 goes, I can't imagine that it could sound any better, I'm totally blown away by what I'm hearing everytime I pick this thing up, so even though it never got the torrefication treatment it doesn't seem to be lacking in great tone.

I watched your link btw, I was able to follow it because I speak french but it's pretty cool that the company doing the torrefication is right here in our humble little province, it's a small world!

[gmel555]

Originally Posted by Burstbucker

I'm not sure why Boucher Guitares woud use non-torrefied tops on their more expensive models if torrefication is really a big benefit. Maybe if the top wood that's been selected is of high enough quality and dry enough it negates the need to dry it out with the torrefication process?....Can somebody out there fill in the blanks for me?

Someone else has already noted that Torrefication does darken the wood a little or more, depending on the wood AND the degree of torrefication. I have two torrefied Bourgeois. So why doesn't Boucher, Bourgeois, Martin, Taylor or many other luthiers torrefy all their guitars? Torrefication isn't required to produce a GREAT sounding guitar. Some folks -like me- believe that it can add an element of an "aged tone" and we are sometimes willing to pay the upcharge and/or just want to acquire the tone we think torrefication will give us. Some folks don't believe in it at all and some may think it helps a little but is not worth the upcharge. Also, some folks are skeptical/concerned about the long-term effects of torrefication. So...luthiers wanting to satisfy the wants of a broad customer base offer guitars with or without torrefication. All of the above IMHO of course.

[Burstbucker]

Originally Posted by llew

I have two Boucher guitars...SG-21 (OM Adi/Bubinga) and SG-42-MG (Dread Adi/Mahogany) with a Master Grade top...neither are torrified. Both sound great. I'd guess on the Maple B&S customs Robin went with a standard (which is anything but?) top for a reason. I'm guessing they must not need it?

You OM Hybrid is a special guitar for sure...Beautiful visually and sonically I'm sure!

Thanks Jim, so your Bouchers aren't torrefied either. I like the look of the "Gold Pack" torrefied tops but if torrefication was that big of a deal in improving the sound quality I find it hard to understand why Boucher wouldn't use it in 100% of their builds rather than 61-62%.

I know that a pale top looks better on my model but I doubt that Boucher would put looks ahead of sound quality if torrefication was that crucial.

I'm not going to lose sleep over it, I was just curious. Thanks for your input fellahs.

Yeah this guitar is pretty stunning to look at and sounds and plays just as good. It wasn't cheap but for a handmade guitar of this quality the price was totally reasonable. Thank you Guitares Boucher!

[Burstbucker]

Originally Posted by gmel555

Someone else has already noted that Torrefication does darken the wood a little or more, depending on the wood AND the degree of torrefication. I have two torrefied Bourgeois. So why doesn't Boucher, Bourgeois, Martin, Taylor or many other luthiers torrefy all their guitars? Torrefication isn't required to produce a GREAT sounding guitar. Some folks -like me- believe that it can add an element of an "aged tone" and we are sometimes willing to pay the upcharge and/or just want to acquire the tone we think torrefication will give us. Some folks don't believe in it at all and some may think it helps a little but is not worth the upcharge. Also, some folks are skeptical/concerned about the long-term effects of torrefication. So...luthiers wanting to satisfy the wants of a broad customer base offer guitars with or without torrefication. All of the above IMHO of course.

Excellent points!

So torrefication might be mostly an attempt to get a more "vintage" sound. not that that same guitar without that process will sound like crap without the help of torrefication. Makes sense.

Funny, I did wonder about the possible longterm effects of that treatment later on many years down the road but since mine is non-torrefied I won't have to think about that a whole lot. LOL

[Dan Boggs]

Torrified or not, Robin ensures every one of his guitars is painfully good by building the "ouch!" into each Boucher.

[ljguitar]

Hi all
There are some interesting videos on torrification, and I'm adding one made by O'brien Guitars in Colorado of a factory which kiln dries wood for building guitars, and the same factory torrifies wood for guitar tops. Here's one that increased my understanding of the process. The factory visit starts about a minute into the video.

It explains torrification at this particular mill. I found this informative.

This is a follow-up video from the same factory and the same builder…more info on how the wood is processed (and some more examples of torrified wood and info about the results).

[aschroeder]

I had the same dilemma when I purchased my Eastman E40om that has an Adirondack top with a torrefied or non-torrefied option. I was very intrigued thinking it may be worth the upgrade to get the torrefied top.

Fortunately I was able to play both options before purchasing. For me, the non-torrefied top won the battle easily. This doesn't mean I would recommend one way or the other because tone is so subjective.

The non-torrefied Adirondack was louder and more articulate. The torriefied top did have a more "vintage" sound, but it was less responsive and to me sounded muddy lacking string definition. For me it was an easy decision after playing both.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by aschroeder

I had the same dilemma when I purchased my Eastman E40om that has an Adirondack top with a torrefied or non-torrefied option. I was very intrigued thinking it may be worth the upgrade to get the torrefied top.

Fortunately I was able to play both options before purchasing. For me, the non-torrefied top won the battle easily. This doesn't mean I would recommend one way or the other because tone is so subjective.

The non-torrefied Adirondack was louder and more articulate. The torriefied top did have a more "vintage" sound, but it was less responsive and to me sounded muddy lacking string definition. For me it was an easy decision after playing both.

Hi aschroeder…
Of course.

If one plays a lot of guitars of the same model he/she begins to realize with manufactured guitars there is a lot of variability between identical looking/built guitars, because there there is a lot of variability in wood.

In your case it was good that you could compare and decide…and you were smart to do so.

[cliff_the_stiff]

A lot of respected builders have been using it from Taylor to Goodall rave about it.
It seems like a solution where there was no problem.
Personally I believe time and use should age thing’s instead of shortcuts.
So I’ll buy new guitars knowing that they will be a little tight for a while, or I’ll buy used-
But I avoid torrified woods.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by cliff_the_stiff

…Personally I believe time and use should age thing’s instead of shortcuts.

Hi C_T_S…

I'm 74 yrs old, and I'm not alone in thinking I don't probably have enough time as an option anymore. Torrified wood is not just being produced for instrument makers, and it's here to stay.

Lighter and less prone to cracking are two pretty high incentives for furniture builders (not to mention most instrument builders) whether it improves tone, sustain, etc or not.

I still rely on ears and hands and to both feel and compare guitars I'm buying.

I just helped both a son and daughter-in-law purchase their 'life' guitars in the past couple years, and in both cases we went to the stores together and played guitars for each other till we found the 'right' ones. These were all-day excursions, and these type outings are always educational as well as productive.

We didn't care if they were new, used, torrified or not. And in both cases they ended up with wonderful instruments, which fit their personal playing styles and tastes.

[Burstbucker]

Thanks again guys for adding to the discussion.

I know a lot more about this topic thanks to all of you kind folks.

Something else that I just found out about my guitar is that it has a bolt-on neck, for whatever reason I thought that it might be a set neck. Well if a set neck guitar can sound this good I’m all for it, plus way cheaper cost down the line if a neck reset becomes necessary.

[ewalling]

Torrefaction, to me, seems like a solution in search of a problem. Great sales idea, no question, but I never had any trouble in finding great-sounding new guitars. Plus, the process muddies up the lovely clean white spruce tops. No, thanks!