Pickup effects on acoustic tone?

[flagstaffcharli]

I know this has been covered before, but I would be interested in any additional opinions on this. A new purchase (that hasn't even arrived yet!) has me already reconsidering my other guitars and my amplification strategy.

I'm looking at these two Fishman Ellipse Blend gizmos stuck to the inside of the soundhole on two of my guitars. They're big, fairly heavy, and stuck to the all-important tops. Also, I thought the dual source mic was a wonderful idea when I bought and installed these years ago, and now I almost never use the mic on either guitar - just the UST.

How much am I degrading the unplugged/acoustic tone on these guitars?

One is an older Martin OM-1 (mahogany neck) that gets played at all my children's music and outdoor gigs. Tiny percentages of acoustic tone aren't as critical with that guitar as dependability and ease of use. It does its job fine. I can't see messing with that guitar. I'll live with the Ellipse in there.

However, the other is a smaller 00 Martin with a cutaway that gets most of its play unplugged - though I do plug it in for some gigs. I've begun to think that guitar might be better off without the bulky Fishman stuff in there weighing down the top. Maybe? This is a top without a lot of surface area to begin with, and I wonder how I'm compromising it? And then... I also know there are a variety of opinions out there on the UST effects on the bridge/saddle relationship. I'd like to get the most unplugged tone/response out of this guitar as possible.

While I know this - like almost every other topic - has been hit a few times, I'd still be very appreciative of a few more opinions before I go pulling a perfectly good device out of my guitar. Thanks!

[El Conquistador]

Originally Posted by flagstaffcharli

I also know there are a variety of opinions out there on the UST effects on the bridge/saddle relationship. I'd like to get the most unplugged tone/response out of this guitar as possible.

Chuck,
In my long and exhaustive hunt for a good sounding pick-up with the least effect on un-plugged tone, I finally landed on the K&K passive.

I was very interested in the Anthem when it first came out, but, several luthiers and even a Baggs rep said the soft UST element they use WOULD alter the un-plugged tone of the guitar. While the K&K must have some effect, it is minimal. A big plus was that I really liked what I heard from the K&K.

I know some guys here really like a dual source, but, I get just lots of compliments on my sound and, I really cannot ask for more than that. Also, at my age, I have become a huge fan of the KISS principle, and, it doesn't get much simpler than the passive K&K. So, for me, it was a win/win.

Steve

[guitaniac]

I have a dual pickup setup in my 314c Taylor. I observed a noticeable improvement in acoustic tone when I swapped out the UST for a soundhole mag. I also noticed the softer, slightly more muted acoustic tone when I removed the mag and went back to using a UST.

[VinceM]

Great topic - thanks for posting on this, flagstaffcharli. I've been wondering about this for awhile - I've got a PUTW undersaddle in my D28. Gary, is this an example of a "soft" UST? It seems like it. It's a great sounding pickup but I'm just wondering if the guitar is not quite as acoustically magical as it once was. I remember back when I just used an M1 passive out with the cable out the soundhole and the guitar purely stock - the acoustic tone of the D28 was to die for!

[flagstaffcharli]

So... full disclosure. I actually bought el Conquistador's OM guitar. It's out in a truck on its way here right now. And that's what got me thinking about this. He has been using a non-invasive K&K where I've been using these Ellipse Blends with all the onboard electronics.

I have read a lot of opinions about the UST. I'm just as interested in the preamp/mic unit. Preamps usually used to be barn doors in the side. But this one attaches right to underside of the top. I'd never really given that much thought to it. But it makes sense to me that it would have some effect - maybe significant effect. Especially considering how much fuss goes into making the top responsive.

Thanks for the responses so far!

[VinceM]

Chuck,

One of the reasons I went for the PUTW system was indeed the preamp issue. I didn't want a gaggle of electronics inside the guitar. PUTW was the only company I could find at the time that sold a high end passive pickup system. I run undersaddle and SBTs to a Vintage Jack and then to a (PUTW) belt clip preamp. It's a bit less convenient, but not too bad. However it was a total PITA to get everything installed properly! But after it was all said and done, it's a great sounding pickup system.

[guitaniac]

Hi Vince,

The UST in my Taylor at the moment is a B-Band. I happen to have a PUTW I/O UST in another guitar, and its my favorite UST, hands down. I do believe, however, that the I/O UST also deadens the tone a tad.

Its interesting to note that the passive I/O UST delivers a hotter signal to my outboard preamp than either of the two active B-Band systems which I've been experimenting with (because they were available super-cheap off ebay). Of course, the outboard preamp is necessary (for impedance matching) with the pasive I/O UST. I could take the active B-Band systems directly to a mixer, though I usually prefer to run thru my Fishman Platinum preamp (to utilize its sweepable mid EQ and more fine-tuneable volume control).

Gary

[El Conquistador]

Originally Posted by guitaniac

I do believe, however, that the I/O UST also deadens the tone a tad.

This is the issue with which I was most concerned, the effect of a pick-up on the UNPLUGGED TONE of my guitars. I would completely understand having lots of devices in a guitar that I never played un-plugged no matter what they did to my unplugged tone, and, hey, good on you guys that are out there experimenting with all kinds of pick-up combinations.

But, in my case, even though I do play professionally (at least, as much as I care to) I still play 90% unplugged and, at this point in my life, simply have paid way too much money to get that elusive extra 5% of tone to turn around and give it back to a pick-up.

And, to beat this horse yet one more time, I get lots of compliments on my tone. Why would I add anything?

Steve

[wood nacho]

I had a DTAR Wavelength installed in my Breedlove and there was a very noticable change in tone as a result. I took it out and will probably end up using an SBT.