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Old 10-15-2018, 07:24 PM
ChrisN ChrisN is offline
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Default Fret Leveling Question

I'm considering give it a go. I've watched a bunch of videos and read lots of informed text, but I've not seen an answer to something that's bugging me.

The tech will remove the strings and straighten the neck, then use the fret rocker, usually in 3 places on the fret (ends and middle), to find the "high" part(s) of each fret.

So far, so good, but, if you check a following fret using the high part of a previous high fret as the reference point, don't you necessarily get an inaccurate result as to the health of the following fret?

Also, I understand you check 3 frets starting at either end, find your high spot(s) on the 2d fret from the end, then move down 1 fret, but doesn't that method assume your starting fret was perfectly level? Or doesn't it matter if your start point is off because you're going to make the rest level relative to each other? If so, isn't that first fret likely to have a buzz if it's left high? In other words, I suppose, how do you rocker-test the starting/ending frets?
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Old 10-15-2018, 08:36 PM
Shuksan Shuksan is offline
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By fret leveling, do you mean leveling a few individual problem frets or do you mean leveling all the frets? A fret rocker can be used for identifying specific problem frets but it wouldn't be used when leveling the entire set of frets in one go.
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Old 10-16-2018, 09:00 AM
ChrisN ChrisN is offline
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Originally Posted by Shuksan View Post
By fret leveling, do you mean leveling a few individual problem frets or do you mean leveling all the frets? A fret rocker can be used for identifying specific problem frets but it wouldn't be used when leveling the entire set of frets in one go.
Good question - I've seen some people check with the rocker and decide there were too few high frets to do a full level, so they'll spot level the problem ones. The guy in the video below (15:15 or so) is doing a full level, but it looks like he's basing how much to take off the problem frets by the marking job he did. I'd be concerned that I'd be taking too much off of the problem frets if I didn't have good info on the frets that told me one was high.

But even if you're checking a few, it would seem you wouldn't really know which fret was high if one of your starting frets, itself, was high (eg, if the fret at the nut was high, then the 2d fret would not cause a rocking between the 1st and 3d frets, so you'd think the 2d fret was OK, but is it, really, if that conclusion was based on its relationship to the 1st fret, which was high relative to the rest?).

I think I can see that if you're doing a full level, you'd just mark them all and take them down until the mark disappears from the last one, then re-crown, but this spot-marking thing to identify high spots is what has me confused.

To answer your question, I've got some lower-fret buzzing with low action, so would like to get away with spot-leveling, but I understand that a full level is preferred if there are "more than a few" frets in need of work. Plus, there's a concern that once you start leveling, you have to chase the buzz up the fretboard, so just do it all at once in the first place.

Thanks for any info.

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Old 10-16-2018, 11:04 AM
Shuksan Shuksan is offline
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You may have already considered this, but before resorting to hunting down and filing individual frets to try to get rid of string buzz, you want to be sure the neck relief is set correctly. If the neck doesn't have a small amount of forward bow, you can get string buzz at low action settings.
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Old 10-16-2018, 11:34 AM
ChrisN ChrisN is offline
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Originally Posted by Shuksan View Post
You may have already considered this, but before resorting to hunting down and filing individual frets to try to get rid of string buzz, you want to be sure the neck relief is set correctly. If the neck doesn't have a small amount of forward bow, you can get string buzz at low action settings.
That I've done, but good to mention it.
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Old 10-16-2018, 02:33 PM
charles Tauber charles Tauber is offline
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There are numerous methods that people use in working frets. I don't own a notched straight edge and don't have a need for one. I recently, after nearly 40 years of guitar work, acquired a fret rocker. I don't really have a need for it either.

I check for frets being level in the as-played condition: strung up with the chosen amount of neck relief and action at nut and saddle. I play each note, one at a time, for the entire range of the fingerboard. Any note that buzzes indicates, usually, that that fret is low or the next one high. (in some cases it will be a higher fret, but usually, the next fret.) I also sight down the neck from nut towards bridge to look for irregularities in fingerboard and fret heights, particularly at the ends.

In many cases, a high fret needs only to be re-seated - I use a hammer with or without a piece of 3/8" maple dowel. If it seats and stays seated, it might not require levelling.

If there are problem areas that can be fixed by levelling a region of frets, I'll level those with a sharpening stone and/or file.

It is a fairly simply process that doesn't need to be made more complex than it is. In the video you posted, with that many "high" frets, per the rocker, I'd certainly inspect each of the "high" frets to ensure it is fully seated and seated along its entire length. I'd start there, prior to levelling any frets.
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Old 10-16-2018, 02:40 PM
Rodger Knox Rodger Knox is offline
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Close to the same as Mr. Tauber, only I use an oak dowel.
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Old 10-16-2018, 02:49 PM
Shuksan Shuksan is offline
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A low fret can also cause a fret rocker to rock and can be a cause of string buzz. To distinguish rocking caused by a high fret from a low fret, you have move the fret rocker to frets above and below the questionable fret where you are seeing rocking to figure out which it is. This assumes that the frets above and below the questionable fret are level. If they are not, the problem is probably bigger than can be solved by filing one fret. That's the sort of scenario where you could end up chasing the buzz to different frets after filing one fret.

As you mentioned, a fret that's high may be high on only a portion of its length. If it's high at one end it could be that the end has lifted a bit out of its slot. In that case you may be able to fix that without filing the fret by supporting the neck on a neck rest, pressing the fret end down hard with a small wood block and keep holding it down while wicking thin CA glue into the slot and while the glue sets to keep the fret end down. This method has worked for me in such cases.
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Old 10-16-2018, 03:17 PM
ChrisN ChrisN is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charles Tauber View Post
There are numerous methods that people use in working frets. I don't own a notched straight edge and don't have a need for one. I recently, after nearly 40 years of guitar work, acquired a fret rocker. I don't really have a need for it either.

I check for frets being level in the as-played condition: strung up with the chosen amount of neck relief and action at nut and saddle. I play each note, one at a time, for the entire range of the fingerboard. Any note that buzzes indicates, usually, that that fret is low or the next one high. (in some cases it will be a higher fret, but usually, the next fret.) I also sight down the neck from nut towards bridge to look for irregularities in fingerboard and fret heights, particularly at the ends.

In many cases, a high fret needs only to be re-seated - I use a hammer with or without a piece of 3/8" maple dowel. If it seats and stays seated, it might not require levelling.

If there are problem areas that can be fixed by levelling a region of frets, I'll level those with a sharpening stone and/or file.

It is a fairly simply process that doesn't need to be made more complex than it is. In the video you posted, with that many "high" frets, per the rocker, I'd certainly inspect each of the "high" frets to ensure it is fully seated and seated along its entire length. I'd start there, prior to levelling any frets.
Re: Methods - I've seen 3 so far, "in playing position" (yours and PLEK, and makes most common sense), fretboard flat (most video instructors, pro and amateur), and, mostly for electrics, "a little backbow to get lower action" (shredder-oriented).

Correcting Frets - you check for problems strung to tension, but do you then work around the tensioned string to work on the fret so as to maintain that tension? Or something else? If you remove or loosen the string(s) for the correction, how do you test for "enough"?

Seating - Good point - I would do that first, before a rocker test.
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Old 10-16-2018, 03:18 PM
ChrisN ChrisN is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shuksan View Post
A low fret can also cause a fret rocker to rock and can be a cause of string buzz. To distinguish rocking caused by a high fret from a low fret, you have move the fret rocker to frets above and below the questionable fret where you are seeing rocking to figure out which it is. This assumes that the frets above and below the questionable fret are level. If they are not, the problem is probably bigger than can be solved by filing one fret. That's the sort of scenario where you could end up chasing the buzz to different frets after filing one fret.

As you mentioned, a fret that's high may be high on only a portion of its length. If it's high at one end it could be that the end has lifted a bit out of its slot. In that case you may be able to fix that without filing the fret by supporting the neck on a neck rest, pressing the fret end down hard with a small wood block and keep holding it down while wicking thin CA glue into the slot and while the glue sets to keep the fret end down. This method has worked for me in such cases.
Two more good points. Thanks
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Old 10-16-2018, 04:36 PM
Rodger Knox Rodger Knox is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisN View Post
Re: Methods - I've seen 3 so far, "in playing position" (yours and PLEK, and makes most common sense), fretboard flat (most video instructors, pro and amateur), and, mostly for electrics, "a little backbow to get lower action" (shredder-oriented).

Correcting Frets - you check for problems strung to tension, but do you then work around the tensioned string to work on the fret so as to maintain that tension? Or something else? If you remove or loosen the string(s) for the correction, how do you test for "enough"?

Seating - Good point - I would do that first, before a rocker test.
I use the truss rod to get the neck flat, and do the work with the guitar flat. I check the frets strung up and in playing position. I don't do repair work, so most of the setups I do are on guitars I've just completed. There is some difference between flat and playing position, but it only matters if you are going for really low action, like electric shredder low.
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Old 10-16-2018, 05:29 PM
murrmac123 murrmac123 is offline
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I have seen this whole "press the fret ends down and wick superglue in " so many times and have refrained from commenting ... but the fact is that if the fret ends are lifting, then the fret wasn't properly radiused in the first place .

Sure , you can squeeze it down, wick in the glue, and take the customer's money, but a year down the line that fret end will start to raise again.

What you need to do is to remove the existing fret and replace with a properly radiused fret which is radiused slightly less than the fretboard radius, and which will therefore not rise at the ends once installed.
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Old 10-16-2018, 06:18 PM
Shuksan Shuksan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by murrmac123 View Post
I have seen this whole "press the fret ends down and wick superglue in " so many times and have refrained from commenting ... but the fact is that if the fret ends are lifting, then the fret wasn't properly radiused in the first place .

Sure , you can squeeze it down, wick in the glue, and take the customer's money, but a year down the line that fret end will start to raise again.

What you need to do is to remove the existing fret and replace with a properly radiused fret which is radiused slightly less than the fretboard radius, and which will therefore not rise at the ends once installed.
The OP says nothing about working on a customer's guitar. His comment about "giving it a go" referring to leveling frets makes that pretty clear, I think, that he's working on his own guitar (I hope). So no harming of customer's money would be involved.

Fact is, the superglue method does work. I have a guitar I did this on 6 years ago and it's fine today. Since the OP appears to be delving into doing his own repair work on his own guitar, it's perfectly legitimate for him to try the method if it fits his circumstances and learn from it, whether it lasts only a year or last 6 or more years.
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Old 10-16-2018, 06:19 PM
mirwa mirwa is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisN View Post
I'm considering give it a go. I've watched a bunch of videos and read lots of informed text, but I've not seen an answer to something that's bugging me.
Like most things in the guitar world, do not overthink it.

Remove strings and carry out fret level to remove any worn divots / humps etc.

String guitar up and carry out setup, note shape of fretboard and neck will now change, the amount is dependant on the thickness of the neck, the gauge of the strings,whether it was flat sawn to quarter sawn, whether its mahogany or maple, the size of the truss rod, frets being compression fitted or not, these all contribute to how a neck changes its shape and geometry under tension.

Test play, any noted buzzes, check those areas with a fret rocker, identify the high spots that are causing the issue, de-string and lower those areas only

As far as not gluing frets down, these are comments I see from people who do not know, gluing frets down is perfectly fine and will last the lifetime of the guitar or until it needs refretting again

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Old 10-16-2018, 08:36 PM
charles Tauber charles Tauber is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisN View Post
Re: Methods - I've seen 3 so far, "in playing position" (yours and PLEK, and makes most common sense), fretboard flat (most video instructors, pro and amateur), and, mostly for electrics, "a little backbow to get lower action" (shredder-oriented).
The conclusion is that there are numerous methods, many of which can be used to produce an acceptable result. My advise is pick ONE that appeals to you and follow that one method. Once you have acceptable results with that ONE method, then, should you wish to, experiment with other methods. Until you have acceptable results with one method, don't mix 'n' match methods. Doing so makes the task much more complex and raises many unnecessary questions.

Quote:
Correcting Frets - you check for problems strung to tension, but do you then work around the tensioned string to work on the fret so as to maintain that tension? Or something else? If you remove or loosen the string(s) for the correction, how do you test for "enough"?
It depends on the problem found. If a single fret end is loose and high, I'll reseat it, and glue it, if necessary, while strung. If need be, I'll loosen one or more strings if they are in the way. If one fret is high and needs filing, I'll loosen whatever strings are in the way, file, re-crown, re-tension and test. Rinse, lather, repeat. If a dressing of all the frets are required, I remove the strings, level, Re-crown, re-string, test each fret. I don't alter the truss rod during this activity. Rarely is more attention required after levelling the frets - but, loose and un-seated frets need to be addressed before levelling.
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