More comfortable Rainsong idea

[Doubleneck]

Issue has been raised about the comfort and sharp edges of full size Rainsongs. I purchased a thin body acoustic this year and it is a Dred but so comfortable. Rainsong doesn't like to customize but why could they cut the body to give thinner guitars? Are there braces built into the molds for the neck? There body dept of 5" is at the high end?

[Captain Jim]

I like the comfort of the Shorty. Less depth than a dread. Smaller body. 12-fret. Oh, wait... that's a completely different guitar. I would think a molded in arm rest with a CF guitar would be a natural, though.

There is often talk of carbon fiber not being "traditional," but some of the CF manufacturers are "less traditional" with their shapes than RainSong... perhaps why some wood guitar people can be tempted with RS?

[Ted @ LA Guitar Sales]

Originally Posted by Doubleneck

Issue has been raised about the comfort and sharp edges of full size Rainsongs. I purchased a thin body acoustic this year and it is a Dred but so comfortable. Rainsong doesn't like to customize but why could they cut the body to give thinner guitars? Are there braces built into the molds for the neck? There body dept of 5" is at the high end?

More like a non issue has been raised, Steve.

I'm sure most here know that the shape and size of an acoustic has a major impact on it's voice, reducing the depth of a dreadnought for instance will amongst other things, reduce it's volume and bass response. Martin had a few limited edition shallow body Dreadnoughts, and the response was less than enthusiastic. I had one for a short time, and like most folks, I much prefer the tone of the standard Martin Dreadnought models.

Last night I spent a few hours with my Rainsong Dreadnought, along with my Martin Dreadnought, and found zero difference in comfort. Both are big, and the edge of my D-45V is no softer than the Edge of my DR3000. I also played some of my Jumbos and found that my Rainsong Jumbo is about the same size as my Taylor Jumbo, which is about the same size as my Gibson J200. And again, I found no difference in comfort between the three guitars.

IMO, if Dreadnoughts and Jumbos are too uncomfortable for you, than you need to move to a smaller guitar, not make the large guitar smaller. And yes, some wood guitars with wood bindings can feature a slightly bigger radius on the edge than what you will find on CF guitars made by Rainsong, Blackbird and McPherson, but the difference is negligible at best.

[Earl49]

Rainsong used to make thinner body guitars based on the WS-1000 profile. A store in Anchorage had a couple but could not sell them for years - maybe 10 - even with heavy discounts. I don't know if the issue was the thin body or the heavy metal flake paint, but those two guitars simply did not sound very good acoustically. They would have been a durable guitar for someone on tour that always plugged in.

[Ted @ LA Guitar Sales]

Originally Posted by Earl49

Rainsong used to make thinner body guitars based on the WS-1000 profile. A store in Anchorage had a couple but could not sell them for years - maybe 10 - even with heavy discounts. I don't know if the issue was the thin body or the heavy metal flake paint, but those two guitars simply did not sound very good acoustically. They would have been a durable guitar for someone on tour that always plugged in.

Hi Earl,

Not sure what model you are talking about, guessing one of the early OM's, but the WS-1000 is available in a thinner body, it's called the OM-1000, and it's hugely popular. In fact that OM body is used on one of Rainsongs most popular models, the Rainsong Shorty.

[Earl49]

Ted, they might have been OM's, but I recall it being noticeably thinner than that - maybe only 3" or 3½" deep. They were heavily painted with metal flake paint too (one silver and one red in this case). Current OM specs shows a 4-1/8" body depth at the end pin., versus 5" for the WS-1000.

I've played the OM-1000 and it is really nice. But these particular thin guitars were not so good acoustically - they just sounded "dead" and quiet, not at all like the normal crystalline Rainsong sound. I was in Anchorage in early August, and they are no longer in that store, so someone pulled the trigger finally.

[Earl49]

Here's another thought about the sharp body edge issue. Since Rainsong uses a really tough auto clear-coat (I don't even use a pickguard), a John Pearse armrest would help soften the edge contour, and removing it later - if desired - should not affect the finish. Wade Hampton Miller has used them for years, and even reports removing them from nitrocellulose finishes without damage. Nitro is much more fragile than the Rainsong clear-coat.

[Ted @ LA Guitar Sales]

Originally Posted by Earl49

Ted, they might have been OM's, but I recall it being noticeably thinner than that - maybe only 3" or 3½" deep. They were heavily painted with metal flake paint too (one silver and one red in this case). Current OM specs shows a 4-1/8" body depth at the end pin., versus 5" for the WS-1000.

I've played the OM-1000 and it is really nice. But these particular thin guitars were not so good acoustically - they just sounded "dead" and quiet, not at all like the normal crystalline Rainsong sound. I was in Anchorage in early August, and they are no longer in that store, so someone pulled the trigger finally.

What you are describing is an early, Hawaiian OM, these guitars pre date the WS model. These early guitars were built differently than current Rainsong models, in fact they are more like a Composite Acoustics X (not a very popular model) than a Rainsong. They were heavy, and very shallow, not very good acoustically.

Originally Posted by Earl49

Here's another thought about the sharp body edge issue. Since Rainsong uses a really tough auto clear-coat (I don't even use a pickguard), a John Pearse armrest would help soften the edge contour, and removing it later - if desired - should not affect the finish. Wade Hampton Miller has used them for years, and even reports removing them from nitrocellulose finishes without damage. Nitro is much more fragile than the Rainsong clear-coat.

Again, this is a non-issue. Folks who like the Pearse armrest have been using them on Rainsong for years, but not because Rainsongs are any sharper than say a Martin GCPA4.

[ChunkyB]

Originally Posted by Ted @ LA Guitar Sales

Again, this is a non-issue. Folks who like the Pearse armrest have been using them on Rainsong for years, but not because Rainsongs are any sharper than say a Martin GCPA4.

I don't feel like it's a non-issue. Just because you haven't had the issue, doesn't mean nobody has. I have a Shorty and a Yamaha CPX15W which is a similar body shape but a little bit deeper body. The edge under my forearm has never bothered me on the Yamaha in the 15 years I've owned it, but the edge on the Shorty can really bother me depending on how I'm sitting and holding the guitar.

[Ted @ LA Guitar Sales]

Originally Posted by ChunkyB

I don't feel like it's a non-issue. Just because you haven't had the issue, doesn't mean nobody has. I have a Shorty and a Yamaha CPX15W which is a similar body shape but a little bit deeper body. The edge under my forearm has never bothered me on the Yamaha in the 15 years I've owned it, but the edge on the Shorty can really bother me depending on how I'm sitting and holding the guitar.

When I say it's a non-issue, I mean as a whole. As most here know, I sell more Rainsongs than any dealer on the planet, and I have never heard this being an issue until yesterday. Sure, I would love to see a Taylor style armrest option for an additional cost, but I'm guessing it would not be a huge seller.

Back in 2009, I spoke to the then president of Composite Acoustics who told me the first thing he does every morning is to log on the Carbon Forum to see read the chatter about their guitars. At the time, one of the complaints was that the new RAW finish was, well, too raw. Given that the RAW finish was designed to reduce labor costs, and it was nothing more than a wax polish on the back, it would be counter productive to spend time and money to make the guitars look better, so CA decided to add more wax for a smoother look. Within weeks, one of my clients presented me with a $200 bill for a shirt that was ruined by this caked on wax in my store. I let CA know what a blunder this was, so they responded by painting the back of the guitars, which of course eliminated any profit. Instead of listening to their dealers, who received no complaints about the original RAW finish, they decided to appease a few forum members. I knew then that this company was doomed.

So, while I believe that some folks don't like the feel of the edges of some CF guitars like Rainsong and Blackbird, I also know that there are many, many more complaints about the feel of large body wood guitars that are selling quite well. For the record, the edge radius of a Rainsong OM, is exactly the same as the edge radius of our Custom Martin OM-15 with tortoise binding. Never had a complaint about this model either.

Bottom line, I would caution any builder reading threads like these to overreact.

[SpruceTop]

What RainSongs could really use is a molded-in, cantilevered armrest that would keep the forearm off the guitar's top thus increasing volume and tone while increasing comfort. I find that carbon-fiber guitars are especially affected by arm pressure on their tops. A cantilevered, carbon-fiber armrest that is integrated into the side of the guitar and then folds over with a 1/16" space between the top and armrest would add minimal weight to the guitar and could be made to look nice too.

[ChunkyB]

Originally Posted by Ted @ LA Guitar Sales

When I say it's a non-issue, I mean as a whole. As most here know, I sell more Rainsongs than any dealer on the planet, and I have never heard this being an issue until yesterday. Sure, I would love to see a Taylor style armrest option for an additional cost, but I'm guessing it would not be a huge seller.

Bottom line, I would caution any builder reading threads like these to overreact.

I don't think anyone should overreact to internet forums.

I think part of the issue is the fact that Emerald and some smaller CF manufacturers incorporate an arm bevel standard, and it seems like it's a no-brainer with carbon fiber because it's so strong and moldable. However, it obviously doesn't fit with Rainsong's manufacturing procedures. It wouldn't be a trivial thing to add to their guitars. But, as a consumer, it's easy to feel like they're missing an opportunity by not capitalizing on some of the inherent benefits of carbon fiber.

This isn't the first time I've seen complaints about the top edge of Rainsongs, though. I've seen more complaints about the sharp fretboard edge, but I've seen some about the body itself.

[Ted @ LA Guitar Sales]

Originally Posted by ChunkyB

I don't think anyone should overreact to internet forums.

I think part of the issue is the fact that Emerald and some smaller CF manufacturers incorporate an arm bevel standard, and it seems like it's a no-brainer with carbon fiber because it's so strong and moldable. However, it obviously doesn't fit with Rainsong's manufacturing procedures...

No it does not, and it also doesn't fit CA's, or Blackbirds, so basically it doesn't fit the three best sounding, and best selling CF guitars currently available. But in addition to the manufacturing challenges, we have to consider esthetics and how it affects marketability.

I think the top three could easily add a Taylor style armrest, using a similar method to Taylors, which would result in a very comfortable guitar, that still sounds the same, and looks close enough to the standard models so as not to offend. Question is, what percentage of consumers would be interested, and how much would they be willing to pay for such an option?

[Doubleneck]

The standard answer to comfort is get a smaller guitar. In Ted's example of Martin making a thinner Dred and the disatisfaction of loosing some bass and volume. The real comparison should be between the thinner Dred and the smaller guitar that is recommended for comfort. My comparison I guess would be in the Martin line a Eric Clapton. I have always been disappoint in these guitars as a flat picker. As a flat picker my McKnight slim 3.5" kills them, I think because of a larger soundboard. I really believe thinness drives comfort more than body size. It's about the angle of the arm away from the body. But again for a flat picker and my style.

[ChunkyB]

Originally Posted by Ted @ LA Guitar Sales

No it does not, and it also doesn't fit CA's, or Blackbirds, so basically it doesn't fit the three best sounding, and best selling CF guitars currently available. But in addition to the manufacturing challenges, we have to consider esthetics and how it affects marketability.

I think the top three could easily add a Taylor style armrest, using a similar method to Taylors, which would result in a very comfortable guitar, that still sounds the same, and looks close enough to the standard models so as not to offend. Question is, what percentage of consumers would be interested, and how much would they be willing to pay for such an option?

Well, you could look it as "how much would people pay for this premium upgrade". But you could also look at it as a design flaw that needs to be fixed.

I think the edge of the body falls into the first category. It apparently only bothers a small minority of people. And while I disagree with the idea that it isn't any "sharper" than other acoustics, it seems that it only bothers a small percentage of customers. And therefore obviously wouldn't be a high priority to adjust the design, nor would it be a good idea to offer a premium upgrade for an armrest or bevel or something.

The fretboard edge on the other hand is, in my opinion, a design flaw that should be addressed. High end guitars almost all have rolled fretboard edges, and the sharp fretboard edge on Rainsongs is something that has been an issue for years and I've seen it brought up many times. Again, I'm sure that isn't a trivial thing because of the challenges of working with carbon fiber, but it certainly isn't a "non issue".