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Old 09-26-2022, 01:46 AM
-GF- -GF- is offline
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Default Why is IR not suitable for live performance?

I've seen this said a lot and, as a beginner, I don't understand it.

It seems to me the main flaws that get highlighted are that the sound gets lost in any sort of mix and problems with EQ, but as I understand it, EQ can be built into any IR (or EQ can be applied before or after) and often complaints get resolved by using the IR as a blend with your dry signal.

Are there other problems I'm missing? Or have I misunderstood how IR works and whether it can or cannot fix the commonly stated flaws I mentioned above?
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Old 09-26-2022, 03:12 AM
shufflebeat shufflebeat is offline
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For solo/duo work the guitar tends to fill out a lot of the overall sound, usually chordal bass end and rhythmic top end. Ideally this leaves a gap for vocals and other melodic elements. Among other things IRs help to tame the typical piezo sound that clutters up that high-mid area resulting in a "close-up" transparency which helps create space for others.

In a bigger band the guitar usually fulfils a different role, smaller in scale, percussive and rhythmic and that raw(er) piezo sound is more useful. In this case a poorly executed or inappropriately processed IR'd signal can lose some of the characteristics that make it useful "from a distance".

The right IR (possibly plural for different scenarios) well processed can usually accentuate the best while avoiding the worst.
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Old 09-26-2022, 03:27 AM
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Originally Posted by shufflebeat View Post
For solo/duo work the guitar tends to fill out a lot of the overall sound, usually chordal bass end and rhythmic top end. Ideally this leaves a gap for vocals and other melodic elements. Among other things IRs help to tame the typical piezo sound that clutters up that high-mid area resulting in a "close-up" transparency which helps create space for others.

In a bigger band the guitar usually fulfils a different role, smaller in scale, percussive and rhythmic and that raw(er) piezo sound is more useful. In this case a poorly executed or inappropriately processed IR'd signal can lose some of the characteristics that make it useful "from a distance".

The right IR (possibly plural for different scenarios) well processed can usually accentuate the best while avoiding the worst.
Thanks for that - very helpful considerations I wasn't aware of - but it confirms my (vague, overall) understanding - that IR can be used to tackle and actually improve the problems people often seem to attribute to it. There isn't necessarily one IR file that is perfect for every situation (just like there isn't one set of settings for any other pedal that fits all) but 2 or more files could be made to really neatly meet each scenario's needs.
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Old 09-26-2022, 03:31 AM
shufflebeat shufflebeat is offline
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Originally Posted by -GF- View Post
...but 2 or more files could be made to really neatly meet each scenario's needs.
For me this is as simple as one preset for solo/duo work and a different one for band.

These are not hard and fast rules and are situation dependent.
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  #5  
Old 09-26-2022, 12:21 PM
phcorrigan phcorrigan is offline
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If you don't believe IR isn't suitable for live sound, check out the artist testimonials at: https://audiosprockets.com/artists/
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  #6  
Old 09-26-2022, 12:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -GF- View Post
I've seen this said a lot and, as a beginner, I don't understand it.

It seems to me the main flaws that get highlighted are that the sound gets lost in any sort of mix and problems with EQ, but as I understand it, EQ can be built into any IR (or EQ can be applied before or after) and often complaints get resolved by using the IR as a blend with your dry signal.

Are there other problems I'm missing? Or have I misunderstood how IR works and whether it can or cannot fix the commonly stated flaws I mentioned above?
I don't think the premise is true. I use ToneDexter all the time live, and have used other IRs as well. I've seen lots of acts at different volume levels and venue sizes using ToneDexter live as well.

I think what is true is that sound changes when you play at higher volumes, in different rooms, and with an audience. Especially with an acoustic that tends to interact with the sound system. This is nothing new, and nothing to do with IRs. The sound you dial in at home at low volume may or may not translate to a live venue. I remember when I was a kid playing in a rock band that I spent all afternoon at a club where we were playing dialing in my "perfect" sound by myself in the empty club - it sounded amazing when I was done! It took me all of 30 seconds that night with the band playing and a full audience to undo everything I'd set up. What sounded great in an empty room with just me didn't cut it in the real gig situation.

There was an article some time back (Sound on Sound maybe?) about how Peter Frampton uses ToneDexter, and how they had lots of different IRs, made with different mics and in different rooms, etc, and they'd choose between them for the show. Really no different than how you might change your EQ, reverb, or whatever, from gig to gig depending on the room and the audience size, noise level and so on.
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Old 09-26-2022, 01:29 PM
MaurysMusic MaurysMusic is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Young View Post
I don't think the premise is true. I use ToneDexter all the time live, and have used other IRs as well. I've seen lots of acts at different volume levels and venue sizes using ToneDexter live as well.

I think what is true is that sound changes when you play at higher volumes, in different rooms, and with an audience. Especially with an acoustic that tends to interact with the sound system. This is nothing new, and nothing to do with IRs. The sound you dial in at home at low volume may or may not translate to a live venue. I remember when I was a kid playing in a rock band that I spent all afternoon at a club where we were playing dialing in my "perfect" sound by myself in the empty club - it sounded amazing when I was done! It took me all of 30 seconds that night with the band playing and a full audience to undo everything I'd set up. What sounded great in an empty room with just me didn't cut it in the real gig situation.

There was an article some time back (Sound on Sound maybe?) about how Peter Frampton uses ToneDexter, and how they had lots of different IRs, made with different mics and in different rooms, etc, and they'd choose between them for the show. Really no different than how you might change your EQ, reverb, or whatever, from gig to gig depending on the room and the audience size, noise level and so on.
Yep. I'm guilty of doing this as recent as last week. My OM-28V sounded warm & cozy, and then the drummer, bassist and other guitar player buried me in mud. I quickly added some treble and it sounded great - with the band. Same for my strat. I can EQ all I want before we start playing- but it always gets tweaked.
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Old 09-27-2022, 03:41 PM
varmonter varmonter is offline
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I've tried tonedexter live. And some store bought and homemade IRS thru my stomp.
What doug said above rings true for me.
What sounded good at home didnt sound good Live at volume.. full house.. I have stopped using them as I dont find the minimal
Difference worth the effort.. ymmv
As with any effect less is generally more.
And I kept dialing it back until I wasn't using it anymore..
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Old 09-27-2022, 06:49 PM
L20A L20A is offline
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Perhaps I don't understand what is meant by IR?
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Last edited by L20A; 09-29-2022 at 10:50 AM.
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  #10  
Old 09-27-2022, 10:41 PM
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Originally Posted by varmonter View Post
What doug said above rings true for me.
What sounded good at home didnt sound good Live at volume.. full house.. I have stopped using them as I dont find the minimal
Difference worth the effort..
Just to be clear, my conclusion isn't that ToneDexter, etc isn't useful. For me, it's a game changer. I just don't think you can blame IRs for the fact that sound can be different in many respects on stage than at home. There's a learning curve in moving from home to the stage with any piece of gear. For those who have figured it out, IRs are making a huge difference, and the various commercial devices are making it pretty easy to "figure out". I have a lot easier time finding the right ToneDexter setting than I have dialing in the right amount of reverb.

Just one data point: I went to see the CA Guitar Trio a while back - my wife got me tickets as a birthday present. I didn't let on that I was less than excited about seeing them, since the live recordings I'd come across were about as quacky as I've ever heard. I was pleasantly surprised on getting to the show to see ToneDexters in each guitarists pedal boards, and as it turned out, the sound was stunning, and very acoustic-sounding. Not a duck to be seen or heard anywhere on stage :-) These devices are revolutionizing live acoustic sound, and to me the difference is way worth the effort, both when performing and when listening to live music. And it's only going to keep on getting better.
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Old 09-28-2022, 12:04 AM
phcorrigan phcorrigan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Young View Post
Just one data point: I went to see the CA Guitar Trio a while back - my wife got me tickets as a birthday present. I didn't let on that I was less than excited about seeing them, since the live recordings I'd come across were about as quacky as I've ever heard. I was pleasantly surprised on getting to the show to see ToneDexters in each guitarists pedal boards, and as it turned out, the sound was stunning, and very acoustic-sounding. Not a duck to be seen or heard anywhere on stage :-) These devices are revolutionizing live acoustic sound, and to me the difference is way worth the effort, both when performing and when listening to live music. And it's only going to keep on getting better.
I was kind of the same way when my wife and I went to see Lyle Lovett a couple of years ago. I wanted to see Jeff White play his guitar and mandolin through his twin ToneDexters.
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Old 09-28-2022, 05:21 AM
jonfields45 jonfields45 is offline
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IRs, like a new distortion pedal for an electric guitarist, need some care to use properly. Lots more ways for it to sound bad than good, but imagine all of rock music with all the guitars sounding like Buddy Holly.

IMO IRs are a total game changer for getting away with the factory under saddle transducers that are stock in most new guitars. Also, a very nice step up for a minimum SBT installation. However, a good dual source system with a microphone and the skill to use it, is competitive.

I've generated IRs for one of the members of the CA Guitar Trio with good feedback on its performance.
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Old 09-28-2022, 05:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by varmonter View Post
I've tried tonedexter live. And some store bought and homemade IRS thru my stomp.
What doug said above rings true for me.
What sounded good at home didnt sound good Live at volume.. full house.. I have stopped using them as I dont find the minimal
Difference worth the effort.. ymmv
As with any effect less is generally more.
And I kept dialing it back until I wasn't using it anymore..
I get what you're saying and it echoes what I've seen a lot elsewhere, but this sentiment (not your post specifically) is part of the misunderstanding I have...

There seem to be 3 statements that are commonly asserted as "accepted wisdom" that I can't reconcile...

1 - "Quackiness" is a serious issue that is worth considerable effort to address
2 - IR entirely addresses quackiness
3 - IR is not worth the hassle for the small benefit they confer.
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Old 09-28-2022, 07:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phcorrigan View Post
I was kind of the same way when my wife and I went to see Lyle Lovett a couple of years ago. I wanted to see Jeff White play his guitar and mandolin through his twin ToneDexters.
I saw Lyle Lovett do a solo acoustic show in an old 5000 seat theatre. My friend and I, being tone geeks, walked all over the theatre, taking in the guitar tone (and vocals, of course) and couldn't believe how PERFECT he sounded, all over the room. He plays capo'ed way up the neck often, and the chiming tones really played well. Not sure what set up he had, as we didn't get a chance to chat with the sound guy, but I know he plays a Collings dred.

Sorry to drift off topic, maybe he played a ToneDexter to bring it home?
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Old 09-28-2022, 07:40 AM
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I use IR live and it’s been perfectly acceptable. I think the amount you use and other EQ concerns might make a difference.
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