Moon Spruce?

[richard1]

Thought you might find this short video interesting. I'd never heard of Moon Spruce before.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQRl11U2Ndk

[SuperB23]

Other common names for this are Alpine or Swiss Spruce from my experience. Great tone wood!

[KevinH]

While Moon Spruce is an interesting concept, I think you'll find much deserved skepticism here on the AGF (see prior threads). Some people say they can hear enhanced tonal qualities from Moon Spruce tops, but I've yet to see a controlled blind test to back that up.

While lunar tidal effects on plant growth have been measured, the effects are quite small. Interestingly, a controlled study was done in which the density and strength (unfortunately not the elastic modulus) were measured after harvesting spruce at various phases of the moon. The results did show an apparent effect of lunar phase on the density and strength, but the differences were small - down around the 10% level, which is much smaller than the variations one finds within a single tree. So its hard to imagine how lunar phase could have much of an effect on a guitar's tone.

[printer2]

I can sell spruce that has been mooned. Did you want fresh mooed or aged mooned?

[AcousticDreams]

I have two guitars with Moonspruce, and a third on order.

While the subject matter is highly debated....There are some very high end luthiers that sincerely believe in it.

I have played Identical guitars made by the same company...with the same species back and sides...and the only difference is one had Moonspruce and the other Sitka Spruce. I believe there is a difference.

No such thing as better though. Better is in the ears of the listener.
For my style and tone that I need...Moonwood is my choice.

[MThomson]

Originally Posted by SuperB23

Other common names for this are Alpine or Swiss Spruce from my experience. Great tone wood!

Alpine or Swiss spruce refers to the growing area, moon spruce to how it is harvested. So you can have alpine or Swiss spruce that is or isn't moon spruce.

[richard1]

Thanks All, for taking the time to add some information. I live and learn. Who'd have guessed that harvesting according to the lunar cycle affects wood?

[Mr. Jelly]

You really have to be grateful that people have the time, resources and inclination to experience and intelligently discuss a subject such as this.

[Mycroft]

Generally I have a hard time buying this. First because I have a hard time seeing how the phase of the moon effects the sap content in a spruce tree. It can't be gravity, because the moon exerts exactly the same amount of gravitational pull on the Earth irregardless of the phase. (It does vary a little depending on where it is in its orbit, given it is not perfectly circular) Is the argument that the dark of the moon causes there to be less sap in the trunk? I don't really buy that either, given how slowly sap moves inside the tree.

Now I do think that there may be something into the video description of the best time to cut the tree being during the tree's low dormant cycle. There is probably less moisture content in the sap, to avoid internal damage from freezing. So cutting in November-early December might have an effect (trying to cut later in winter would be more difficult due to having to contend with the buildup of snowpack.) Does dropping the tree down the slope cause some of the sap to drain out of the trunk and into the down-slope parts of the tree? Maybe. But having grown up around logging, I do know that you don't drop a tree across a slope because a) it might roll when doing something like limbing and b) so you can skid it straight down the slope when you want to take it out.

I must admit that I got a chuckle when the guy in the video likened the moon spruce that he has played to really good European spruce.

Un, dude, it IS European spruce.

[nootis]

I don't have any experience with Moon Spruce, but I recently listened to the Fretboard Journal's interview with Michael Bashkin. They touched on the subject, and Michael's take on it is interesting especially coming from someone with a forestry backround. To paraphrase Michael, scientifically, there are measurable differences, but the actual differences lend themselves to the human element (subjectivity). Moon Spruce may sound better, but it's difficult to prove. Even if there were a controlled blind test as someone suggested, the sample of offerings of such a test would be so small that one could not conclude the results as scientific fact.

With that said, my mother used to give me ginger ale if I had a stomach ache. It seemed to always work for me.

[Dirk Hofman]

Originally Posted by KevinH

While Moon Spruce is an interesting concept, I think you'll find much deserved skepticism here on the AGF (see prior threads). Some people say they can hear enhanced tonal qualities from Moon Spruce tops, but I've yet to see a controlled blind test to back that up.

While lunar tidal effects on plant growth have been measured, the effects are quite small. Interestingly, a controlled study was done in which the density and strength (unfortunately not the elastic modulus) were measured after harvesting spruce at various phases of the moon. The results did show an apparent effect of lunar phase on the density and strength, but the differences were small - down around the 10% level, which is much smaller than the variations one finds within a single tree. So its hard to imagine how lunar phase could have much of an effect on a guitar's tone.

Interesting. I'd be up for a 10% more stiff top across the boards–that actually sounds significant to me. Sure individual trees vary, but if you harvest all trees at the right phase of the moon (whatever that is) and get 10% stiffness increase, that seems like a great thing, if that stiffness is what you're looking for. So it would not guarantee a stiffer top tree-to-tree, but it might mean your tops as a whole would be 10% stiffer. Which would allow them to be made thinner.

Sounds like a meaningful, useful difference to me, I'm actually quite surprised as it seemed previously like some mystical mumbo-jumbo to me.

[MThomson]

Originally Posted by Mycroft

Generally I have a hard time buying this. First because I have a hard time seeing how the phase of the moon effects the sap content in a spruce tree. It can't be gravity, because the moon exerts exactly the same amount of gravitational pull on the Earth irregardless of the phase. (It does vary a little depending on where it is in its orbit, given it is not perfectly circular).

My understanding is the effect is similar to the effect of phases on the tides. The phases are based on the alignment of the sun, earth and moon and at a full or a new moon, the sun and moon are aligned or opposed affecting the total gravitational pull on the earth and therefore the tides. The elliptical orbit of the moon then leads to a second effect and if you were to harvest at the time when both optimally aligned, you would get the desired effect. I have no understanding of Sap movement rates as to whether this would manifest but there is a plausible gravity related explanation for me.

[Dirk Hofman]

Originally Posted by Mycroft

Generally I have a hard time buying this. First because I have a hard time seeing how the phase of the moon effects the sap content in a spruce tree. It can't be gravity, because the moon exerts exactly the same amount of gravitational pull on the Earth irregardless of the phase. (It does vary a little depending on where it is in its orbit, given it is not perfectly circular) Is the argument that the dark of the moon causes there to be less sap in the trunk? I don't really buy that either, given how slowly sap moves inside the tree.

Yes, the moon's gravitational pull is nearly constant, but it's not the only celestial body tugging at the earth. This RE: tides, but I would assume the principle is the same? I dunno, not my wheelhouse but this makes sense to me.

Spring Tides: The Greatest Tidal Range
Imagine spring tides as the result of the moon and sun working together to exert more pull on the earth's oceans. When the moon is in its full and new phases the earth, sun and moon are all aligned, which means the sun’s and moon’s gravitational forces coincide. A more pronounced tidal range – stronger high and low tides – results from this alignment. These spring tides get their name not because of the season but because they “spring” stronger up and down.

Neap Tides: The Lowest Tidal Range
Neap tides, meanwhile, result from the moon and sun working against each other's pull. When the moon is in its first and third quarter phases, the earth, sun and moon form a right angle. Acting in counter directions, the gravitational tugging of moon and sun weaken one another, resulting in less pronounced high and low tides than normal: a neap tide.

Extreme Tides
Slightly pronounced spring tides called proxigean (or perigean) spring tides normally occur a few times a year when the time when the moon passes closest to the earth in its orbit – a point called “perigee” – coincides with a new or full moon. With the moon closer to earth, the effect of its gravitational force increases, and enhances the already strong tidal fluctuation associated with the alignment of earth, moon and sun at those new and full lunar phases.

https://sciencing.com/moons-pull-ear...est-21419.html

EDIT: Didn't see the post above, sorry for the dupe!

[KevinH]

The thing is that the elastic modulus of spruce can vary by a factor of 2 (i.e. 200%) even within the same species. So, even if Moon Spruce gave you 10% (the paper I referenced didn't actually measure the modulus...just density and strength), you'd have better luck just randomly trying out different versions of a guitar to find a "good" one.

In a previous AGF thread, someone referred to Moon Spruce as belonging to the species Marketus Gimickus, which is pretty close to the mark .

Originally Posted by Dirk Hofman

Interesting. I'd be up for a 10% more stiff top across the boards–that actually sounds significant to me. Sure individual trees vary, but if you harvest all trees at the right phase of the moon (whatever that is) and get 10% stiffness increase, that seems like a great thing, if that stiffness is what you're looking for. So it would not guarantee a stiffer top tree-to-tree, but it might mean your tops as a whole would be 10% stiffer. Which would allow them to be made thinner.

Sounds like a meaningful, useful difference to me, I'm actually quite surprised as it seemed previously like some mystical mumbo-jumbo to me.

[247hoopsfan]

Moon spruce certainly could be “marketus gimickus”, but harvesting trees at a certain Moon phase has been practiced in Europe for violins for centuries. I am a fan of Larrivee guitars and he has built a number of moon spruce topped guitars.
I have never played one, but my 3 Sitka spruce top Larrivees sound awesome.
This is a great video of how Larrivee harvested a huge standing dead tree.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8duRvFIuKo