Talk about Brazilian Rosewood

[Wade Hampton]

Brandall wrote:

Originally Posted by brandall10

I wasn't arguing Brazilian is the best choice for everyone at all, just that its status as a grail wood is earned due to performance and not just scarcity or some misappropriated heresay.

I know for a nearly equally large number of folks that mahogany is the ultimate, and for sure koa occupies a nice middle-ground territory that is certainly the ultimate for many.

I'm sorry if quoting the passage that I did misrepresented what you were trying to say. Seriously, from what I can tell, you and I are more or less in agreement with each other on this.


whm

[s2y]

Originally Posted by wisedennis

Somogyi and Olson's Brazilian rw guitars are very good!

I should hope so at that price.

One of my DNs was by a luthier who studied under Somogyi and modified the bracing, as well as used BRW for the back/sides. It sounds phenomenal about 8 feet in front of it. It still sounds good from my POV when I'm playing it, but not nearly as good as out in front.

[MCDEMO1]

I have not yet gone searching for historical information about why BRW (and to a lesser extent Honduran Mahogany) became the preferred tone woods for guitar makers, I assume starting with Martin.

Is there any history of Martin trying and comparing BRW and EIR builds in their earlier Golden Era days and preferring the BRW tone-wise ? Or was the source too far away or EIR itself unknown as a tonewood by European and U.S. builders ?

EIR just did not suddenly appear out of nowhere when BRW stocks were restricted or depleted. Logistics wise, when there was no shortage of BRW stock, getting wood from South America was no doubt easier than from India.

In a majority of cases I like the straight grained looks of EIR over BRW that I have seen, but because of the expense I have not sought out BRW guitars.

I have to admit that I have always liked the sound of mahogany and spruce guitars in general better than rosewood and spruce.

[mercy]

If I could buy a Braz by a known builder I would but I cant so Ive had Madi, Coco, Wenge and EIR. Ive had several hogs too but I think they are good for strumming and not for fingerstyle.
I like the sound of my EIR, it has a very strong tone and good sustain, I enjoy playing it and it is so beautiful. IMO nothing is more beautiful than straight grain EIR. I havent played any Braz so I dont know how it compares sound wise but according many builders it isnt close. Lots of builders like the sound EIR tends to make and many players also though.

[Rinaz]

Thanks for all the comments. Very interesting conversations from you guys and lots of new information for me to learn. I haven’t tried any other wood except mahogany and EIR. The EIR gives lots of sustain, crisp sound, bass response, and clear notes compare to mahogany. Mahogany tends to have darker sound and more bass, for me it’s too woody when playing any note from the low E string. It sounds like the wood vibrates a lot. It doesn’t have crisp sound, or too little that I couldn’t hear. The treble side is completely darker than rosewood which I prefer it to be clear and bright. Maybe I tried a bad mahogany one, I did try a gibson hummingbird and it sounds the same way but more sustain, woody, clear, and darker. Still, missing the crisp of rosewood

I have an EIR one from Taylor 810E,, really love it but the sound is just brighter than my future (thAts a joke ), it has everything I want except the bass shouldn’t be that bright (and very crisp too).. I changed the bridge pin to Tusq that I bought from china(not sure if the quality is good) and it gives darker bass but the entire guitar just become less bright and it doesn’t sound right to me as a Taylor.. I may try bone bridge pins or even change the nuts and strings too, if it doesn’t change the problem I need to live with it or upgrade to BRW hoping it gives some more darker bass. I have plenty of time to try out cocobolo or whatever wood that is suggested in this thread. Very appreciate it and if you know anything to darken up my Taylor bass let me know

[Crash-VR]

I would give just about anything for a Traugott BK with nice straight grained Braz from his special stash that was milled in the late 1800’s. Considering that most of his guitars are made from Braz, and he voices all his guitars similarly, it’s safe to say that he knows how to get the most out of that wood in his guitars. Someday...

[Ergoetal]

Originally Posted by Rinaz

So I noticed that most guitar with Brazilian rosewood will most likely louder and offer some more of everything on a guitar compare to Indian rosewood unless you got lucky and have a master grade indian rosewood on the guitar. The look of Brazilian rosewood just really stands out and it sounds so powerful. I noticed that on high end guitars like santa cruz, martin d45 with Brazilian rosewood usually have very straight grains of wood, sometime it looks like indian rosewood, just maybe a bit darker color.

Does it affect the sound in any way or it’s just only the look? I know every guitar sounds differently but I just wanted to know if the wood grade will change the sound for Brazilian rosewood. I’ve heard that AAA or even AAAA Brazilian rosewood nowadays was only A, AA or even worse than before. And if you are unlucky you’ll get a bad one that doesnt even sound as good as indian rosewood. Is it true? Do the manufacturers, luthiers, or companies choose good ones before building a guitar?


I’m saving up for my future high end guitar and it’s gonna be the rosewood. Im not really a wood expert so if there are options besides Brazilian rosewood please suggest that to me. I’d love to hear

I'll mention a few things. I've owned three Braz guitars, including a '66 D-28. Today I've got one - a sweet 50-year-old Gurian - and I don't miss the other two. Also, a top-tier luthier once told me that Braz and Indian both sound the same - the key is in the builder and what they can do with those woods. No, I won't tell you who it was.

[Wade Hampton]

Originally Posted by Rinaz

...if you know anything to darken up my Taylor bass let me know

Three suggestions:

First, if you’re using light gauge strings, try using a “bluegrass gauge” set. You don’t have to play bluegrass music on it; it’s simply a set of strings with light gauge treble strings and medium gauge basses.

Some string companies designate these by labeling them as “light tops, medium bottoms,” or other phrases to that effect.

Just by beefing up the gauges on the low E, A and D strings you should get a noticeable increase in bass response.

Second, try a set of John Pearse phosphor bronze strings. These have more bass response and overall complexity in the low end and lower midrange response than, say, D’Addario or Elixir phosphor bronze strings.

Third, another option is to experiment with nickel alloy strings. I’ve tried three different brands on many of my guitars: John Pearse Pure Nickel, Martin Retro Monels, and D’Addario nickel-bronze.

Of the three, the D’Addarios have the most treble response, the Pearse Pure Nickels have the most bass response, and the Martin Retro Monels are about in the middle.

All three of those sets have less treble response than just about any regular phosphor or 80/20 bronze strings than I can think of.

Hope this helps.


Wade Hampton Miller

[John5]

Originally Posted by cliff_the_stiff

Just guessing, but while this sounds like a solid recommendation, I don’t know of a world in which a Martin custom shop with AAAA Brazilian is less than 8-10K.
Bedell guitars have a significant stock of Brazilian, and make reasonably priced custom builds.

Yeah... But I mean... It's a BEDELL. It's not even on the same level, there's a reason people aren't posting about how great their Bedell guitars are on this forum. The whole point of my post was that any other brand won't be a Martin. Otherwise why not also just might as well recommend him a Cort Brazilian Rosewood guitar? It'd definitely be cheaper.

[Dbone]

Originally Posted by John5

Yeah... But I mean... It's a BEDELL. It's not even on the same level, there's a reason people aren't posting about how great their Bedell guitars are on this forum. The whole point of my post was that any other brand won't be a Martin. Otherwise why not also just might as well recommend him a Cort Brazilian Rosewood guitar? It'd definitely be cheaper.

So you were being dead serious. Okay. This might come as a complete shock to you, but there actually are some people out there that don’t accept it as fact that there is Martin, and then everything else.

If I was looking to layout large cash for a very high quality instrument having Brazilian back and sides Martin would probably be the last company I would consider. What a crapshoot that would be with my large sums of money relative to the higher certainty of not getting a dud I would receive from other builders. Martin construction is just way too inconsistent compared to some other options out there.

Don’t get me wrong, Martin has a following, and it is very clear why that is. You can find some exceptional instruments from them. No doubt about that. The problem is you can find an awful lot of really bad ones too, and it has nothing to do with what you paid. Higher dollars paid on a custom built instrument in the Martin world is a scary proposition. If it’s already built and I try before I buy that’s an entirely different matter.

Giving Martin Guitar 12 - 15k and hoping for the best? Yeah, okay...no...Some other builders? Perhaps...

[TokyoNeko]

Originally Posted by John5

You sound like someone who wants the best, so you should only buy a Brazilian Rosewood Martin guitar, which I think you can only get through their custom shop. If you buy any other brand, such as a Taylor with Brazilian Rosewood, or Ervin Somogyi guitar with Brazilian Rosewood, you will always wish you had a Martin with Brazilian Rosewood. Make sure you tell the Martin custom shop you want their AAAA grade Brazilian Rosewood so you don't end up with their A grade Brazilian Rosewood, which won't sound as good (look up D-45 versus HD-28 threads on this forum, most people will agree that there is a clear difference in tone due to the higher grade of woods used on the higher end models).

At the end of the day, tonal preference is subjective, but there are a lot of people who prefer Taylor's tone to Martin... and no offense, many in this forum would take a Somogyi over a custom Martin in a heartbeat.

And as for the tonewood grade, I think it's based on the appearance, not the tonal qualities.

[dbintegrity]

Originally Posted by Dbone

So you were being dead serious. Okay. This might come as a complete shock to you, but there actually are some people out there that don’t accept it as fact that there is Martin, and then everything else.

If I was looking to layout large cash for a very high quality instrument having Brazilian back and sides Martin would probably be the last company I would consider. What a crapshoot that would be with my large sums of money relative to the higher certainty of not getting a dud I would receive from other builders. Martin construction is just way too inconsistent compared to some other options out there.

Don’t get me wrong, Martin has a following, and it is very clear why that is. You can find some exceptional instruments from them. No doubt about that. The problem is you can find an awful lot of really bad ones too, and it has nothing to do with what you paid. Higher dollars paid on a custom built instrument in the Martin world is a scary proposition. If it’s already built and I try before I buy that’s an entirely different matter.

Giving Martin Guitar 12 - 15k and hoping for the best? Yeah, okay...no...Some other builders? Perhaps...

That was well said ! It took Martin 92 years to build 500,000 guitars...1898-1990..... in the last 30years 1990-2020... they have built almost 2,400,000... quality control suffers with output like that....
Better off with a smaller boutique shop or luthier...

[Dbone]

Originally Posted by TokyoNeko

At the end of the day, tonal preference is subjective, but there are a lot of people who prefer Taylor's tone to Martin... and no offense, many in this forum would take a Somogyi over a custom Martin in a heartbeat.

And as for the tonewood grade, I think it's based on the appearance, not the tonal qualities.

I am not familiar with that brand. Checked out the website. Wow is all I can say. Then when I checked out the price of the Somogyis. Double wow. Do they ever have any buy one get one free sales?

Remarkable looking instruments. Perhaps in another lifetime.

[Rinaz]

Originally Posted by John5

Yeah... But I mean... It's a BEDELL. It's not even on the same level, there's a reason people aren't posting about how great their Bedell guitars are on this forum. The whole point of my post was that any other brand won't be a Martin. Otherwise why not also just might as well recommend him a Cort Brazilian Rosewood guitar? It'd definitely be cheaper.

You are right I really am the guy who wants best. Some people want a nice car, or a nice house but it’s guitar in my case. Well, I do have a limit and not gonna put 20k-50k for a guitar. That kind of money can save lives for me and I’m looking for perfect sounding guitar for me with a decent looking . I look for a guitar that I can keep but not gonna lose too much value over time. Martin seems like a perfect selection for that reason. But I am looking more into guitars from luthiers like santa cruz, goodall, collings, Olson and that’s all the name I know of. If you or anyone can name more best luthiers that can build me one please let me know. Need to see all the options available before buying one .

I have a Taylor 810e with sitka/EIR and it sounds 90% similar to a goodall Dreadnought with adi/EIR. Except the Taylor is more crisp in the bass side and the goodall is more articulate in the treble side. The bass side of goodall is very articulate too. So I’m wondering if anyone has experience with them in BRW or how Taylor BRW Guitars compare to Goodall BRW Guitars overall?

[Guitarbench]

So I read and reread the OP's question which are;

1. Does the straight grained Brazilian affect the sound?
2. Can you get a poor sounding Brazilian guitar? and;
3. Do the manufacturers, luthiers, or companies choose good ones before building a guitar?

I won't touch on pricing because that's not what was asked....

1. I'd say it is not a given. Most grading is mostly aesthetics as opposed to structural. Granted in Brazilian lower grades tend to be flatsawn compared to quartersawn so structurally, that may make a difference. However, it is not a given that quartered Brazilian sounds better than flatsawn. However, most small scale, one man shops are likely to grade for sonic quality as well as structural and aesthetic... which we will get onto.

2. Yes. like all guitars, you can get get a dud.

3. Big manufacturers? Very unlikely. You'd probably have a wood buyer which buys woods on a larger scale to fall within certain specifications.

Individual builders have the advantage of being able to be very picky with woods and can select out that they would find ideal.

Smaller workshops may do things anywhere between.

Basically, if you are ordering new, you may not be guaranteed a wonderful guitar- hence the comments on buying used- you already know what you're going to get.

Having said that, most individual builders do offer a returns policy if you are not satisfied with the guitar.