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  #31  
Old 02-07-2018, 06:51 AM
leew3 leew3 is offline
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Toby et. al.
A great discussion thread that of course Toby started right on target. I think of Rev. Gary Davis and absolutely stunning playing on an out of tune J 200 with ancient strings. While having the 'right' guitar surely helps we mere mortals (my spiffy newest acquisition of a CEO 7 is my example) what Bob Taylor years ago called 'bone tone' from the player is surely a great variable to attend to.
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  #32  
Old 02-07-2018, 07:04 AM
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Toby Walker Toby Walker is offline
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Originally Posted by zombywoof View Post
Many of the players could afford pretty much any guitar they wanted. Son House recalled he could make $90 a session which was more than he could earn working the fields in a year. He also stated popular artists such as Charley Patton could make quite a bit more. H. C. Speir who ran a music store and recording studio on Farish Street in Jackson, MS and who served as a "talent scout" for the race record labels, once recalled Memphis Minnnie and Kansas Joe McCoy blowing into town in a brand new convertible car toting the first National Tricones anyone in the state had seen. He, however, also recalled that the players did have a preference for the Schmidt guitars because they sounded good and held up to life on the road.
I would think those that you mentioned were the exception rather than the rule. Most of the recording 'artists' of the day who weren't as popular as the ones you mentioned played poorer quality instruments. A couple of the guys that I knew were still playing those even in the '90s.
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  #33  
Old 02-07-2018, 05:53 PM
zombywoof zombywoof is offline
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There is a rule of thought that buying the top of the line Kay, Harmony or whatever is better than buying the low end Gibsons, Martins and such. There is some truth to that. I prefer a Kay Television archtop to a Gibson L-50 even though the Kay cost about 1/3 less when new. I own an early 1930s Oscar Schmidt-made Galiano jumbo (the same as a Schmidt Sovereign) which I prefer over any Gibson LG-1 I have yet to get my hands on.
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  #34  
Old 02-26-2019, 09:16 AM
WillieCoyote WillieCoyote is offline
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Originally Posted by Silly Moustache View Post
Hi Toby, et al, Essentially, I agree with you.

My "thing" is guitars designed before 1934. The wider necks, the 12 fret designs, etc. However as I couldn't afford pre-war instruments or their maintenance I have sought modern makers who make instruments in the "image" of those old designs - Martin Original dreads, 00 and 000 designs and Gibson L-1s ,L-2 L-oo and Roy Smeck designs -as well as my one vintage '34 L-4 archtop.

Yup, there simply are many, many more choices if you buy new/relatively new. You really can get just about anything you want.

I'm old enough to have bought "vintage guitars" when they were "inexpensive used instruments". I've had a couple great ones and made some decent money selling them. Most of my current instruments have been made this century and are modeled after older instruments/designs - acoustic/electric guitars, basses, amps - couldn't be happier. They are outstanding!
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  #35  
Old 02-26-2019, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Goat Whiskey Picks View Post
Another big component of the tone you're hearing on the old recordings is that the cheap guitars they could get their hands on was also being recorded on some VERY lo-fi recording equipment. You're never going to match that combination today. Find a guitar that feels and plays good to you, pick one with a nice dry, thumpy tone and play through the darkest parts of your life. It's a feel that a lot of folks can imitate but few can totally reproduce. It's all in the fingers and the soul.
Ah.....but you can! Jack White has it set up in his Nashville recording studio...he did a PBS special using the old equipment called "American Epic"...
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  #36  
Old 02-26-2019, 09:50 AM
J Patrick J Patrick is offline
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...great subject and as always a pro perspective is invaluable...when it comes to guitars I love em all....old/new..shiny/dull..pretty/ugly..big/small..cheap/spendy....as long as I can string it up I can find a use for it....and I can play some kind of blues on any of them...

....but!!!...the blues exist under a really big tent and like no other genre I can think of they run the gamut from elegant jazzy representations that take a great deal of technical proficiency to raw stone simple renderings that very limited players can pull off effectively....certainly there are guitars that match up with the type of blues one is playing better than others and I like having a choice...love the old wood but dang i sure like the new guitars I have too...and at the end of the day the better the guitar the more I can do with it...
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  #37  
Old 02-26-2019, 10:19 AM
gfirob gfirob is offline
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Well, first of all, the best way to achieve the authentic sound of a blues player from the ‘30’s or 40’s would be to invent a pedal that would introduce the hiss and scratch of an old 78 into the signal chain…

I think the use of old guitars to play roots music of any kind is an affectation, but it is an affectation that I enjoy. I just like older guitars, recognizing that they almost always need work including issues with intonation (not to mention bent necks and loose braces). To me the difference between playing a Kalamazoo KG 14 and a Waterloo copy is night and day, not because the Waterloo is a bad guitar, but because the Kalamazoo has so much more life and history in it. I also think the Kalamazoo’s are lighter, but I wouldn’t take that to court.

I love the finish crazing, the worn spots from arm rubbing, the heavy pick wear on the top, the divots in the fingerboard, everything that shows years of playing on that old guitar. I don’t think it sounds any better for all of that (though the good old ones often sound great), I just like owning it and being part of the chain of its musical life.

And I think the old guitars look better as performing guitars, they add a touch of authenticity, (even though it is entirely artificial). Many professional musicians who own vintage guitars don’t gig with them just because they are too valuable or too frail. But many professional players do play vintage guitars on stage because they love the way they sound (and look).

The bottom line to me is vintage guitars themselves make virtually no difference in the way the music sounds. The KIND of guitar does—resonator or arch top or ladder braced or whatever—but whether or not it is old is much less important than the skill of the musician.

During the blues revival in the middle ‘60’s those old guys played whatever their handlers came up with. John Hurt’s middle range vanilla Guild has already been mentioned. Skip James played what they gave him, sometimes an old Gibson, sometimes a much newer guitar. The Reverend Robert Wilkins played a ‘50’s D18 at the Philadelphia folk festivals (hardly a blues machine) and Bukka White played a vintage square-necked National tri-cone until he smashed the bridge and cones with his hyper aggressive playing—and they all sounded more authentic than any of the white blues enthusiasts that followed.

So give me those old guitars anytime, stupid and expensive though it may be…

Rob
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  #38  
Old 02-26-2019, 10:46 AM
Goat Mick Goat Mick is offline
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Hey the resurrection of a zombie thread!! But it is a good one. I honestly prefer the feel and sound of an old, well played guitar that has seen it's fair share of life. However I do agree with Toby that the old vintage guitars can be problematic especially if you're touring or gigging a lot with them. I have come across a few new guitars that have the feel and sound of an old guitar. If you're looking for a real bargain, it's hard to beat an Ibanez AVC6DTS. Those guitars just feel and sound much older than they are. I recorded two of my CDs with mine (the Honeysuckle Breeze CD is with my '59 J-45). And then at the end of last year I stumbled across my Martin 000-17 and dang it just feels (and sounds) like a vintage guitar. To my ear it's very Gibsonesque in tone. I haven't played the other models in the 17 series but I would expect the same from them.

Also regarding the comments that it is possible to record now with vintage equipment, you are correct. We have a studio here in Bristol, TN named the Earnest Tube that is using the old vintage equipment and making some very authentic recordings. But my point in the original statement is that the recording process back in the 20's, 30's and 40's created a lot of that old vintage blues tone that we love and you're not going to hear that playing in your living room. Yeah you can track down one of these studios and reproduce the sound on your own recordings but you're not going to hear it live.

This is a great discussion, I've really enjoyed it!
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  #39  
Old 03-11-2019, 01:45 AM
MOSES JONES MOSES JONES is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toby Walker View Post


I’ve owned them all - from a 1908 Gibson L-1, a ’28 Stromberg, to a 1935 Gibson L-00 in VG condition, a ’34 Stella, even a ’60’s Harmony H-165 - the same model that Mance Lipscomb used to play - and just about everything in between. I still have a ’30 National Triolian which I keep around for sentimental purposes. It’s a great guitar with killer tone but the intonation is way off. While those old guitars are cool to look at and have a sound of their own, I’ve long since switched over to the newer models for a number of reasons.

First and foremost, I believe that you can play the Blues on virtually ANY guitar. Music will always be in the hands of the player and standing unplayed on a stand, a guitar only is as cool as in the eye of the beholder.

That being said, I think there are some reasons why some Blues guitarists go for the older guitars - regardless of whether they’re the price of a Timex or a Buick. For one, they look the part. There’s a certain ‘mojoistic’ quality that goes along with playing the Blues on a beat up guitar. A lot of players buy into that sort of thing.

Another reason is the sound. No doubt about it, those older instruments have a sound that, at least to my ears so far, simply hasn’t been replicated in the newer models. It’s easy enough to explain: the wood has aged nearly 80 to 100 years and no amount of ‘torificatiion’ or ‘ToneRighting’ is going to reproduce that tone. Some come mighty close, but to a discriminating ear, not close enough.

Here’s the rub: those older players that some modern players want to imitate all used relatively newly built guitars, many less than 5 to 10 years old. And once they could afford better models, many - but not all - graduated from those Harmonys and Stellas to Martins and Gibsons. So the ‘tone’ that they produced on those recordings, be it from the 20’s or the 60’s were all done on recently built guitars. Not to mention that each individual player had their own personal, physical attack, which is impossible to replicate at 100%.

The problems the modern day player may face with those older models is A) the condition they are in and B) their playability. While many of the vintage instruments I’ve purchased over the years were in G to VG condition - due to skilled luthiers who brought them back to life - there were also a number of them whose issues were needed to be addressed. Even then, there was the inherent issues of the original design - specifically of extremely thick necks - which made those guitars a bit difficult to play.

I discussed this subject at length with a colleague of mine - Catfish Keith. He’s an amazing traditional, professional Blues guitarist who performs regularly all around the world. While Keith, like myself, has owned and played numerous vintage model instruments, the ones he relies on all the time are faithful recreations of those old time models. We both came up with the same reasons for our choices.

First off, they sound great. There is simply no mistaking the sound of a superb sounding National. The folks out in California have recreated those instruments in amazing detail, and the cones - which produce most of the tone - have been scrupulously perfected over the years. Even the Waterloo line from Collings has that unmistakable dry, woody tone, so inherent of those old time instruments. Let’s not forget the smaller builders like Mike Hauver and Todd Cambino, who have truly captured that vintage sound of the Stellas.

The second reason for choosing them is their overall build and playability. My Polychrome 2017 National not only much better intonation than any older National that I’ve played, but it comes with an adjustable truss rod which is mighty handy if your instrument is being subjected to various environmental changes. My Dell Arte 12 string comes with a compensated saddle, making for a very finely intonnated instrument. And these days if you don’t like a strong V shaped neck you can always opt for a comfortable C shape.

On a budget? There are plenty of great guitars to be had these days for around $1,000 and under, all suitable for picking the Blues in the hands of a capable player. I thought nothing of bringing out an Eastman or a Yamaha on stage with me, right alongside my National Tri-Cone.

In conclusion, it’s really all up to the individual player as to which type of guitar they choose to play the Blues on. This is, after all, a completely subjective choice. Just know that there are other fine choices out there that will do more than suit your needs.

Excellent writings...yep I get a lot of younger players asking me crazy things like that...I just say my Da told me ....just play and sing the best you can whenever and on what ever you've got in your hands...that's it!
I play Nationals (modern ones) and a couple of Republics (great instruments) and my favourite of all is one of my Republics! So go figure! It's not even the best Republic I own but boy does it shout it out!....Instrument and gear snobs I have no time for...it's the music that matters!
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  #40  
Old 03-11-2019, 03:02 AM
zombywoof zombywoof is offline
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Last Saturday I went out to an open mic. I had talked to the guy who runs it earlier in the day and knew he was planning to put his 1930s Regal, which has an action so high you could pass your hands between the strings and the board, in open tuning and play slide. So I decided to try and outdo his wreck with one of my own so brought my early 1930s Oscar Schmidt-made Galiano jumbo with the collapsing top in and in bad need of a neck reset along. Strange night made even stranger when a local peace officer in full cop regalia stopped in to listen. Figured at first we were going to get a disturbing the peace ticket. We went on for hours playing everything from Searching the Desert to St. James Infirmary to Three Wooden Crosses to Wipe Out (to take advantage of one of the rare instances a drummer sat in). The next day I kept hearing that in all the time this open mic has been going on this one had a bit of magic to it others lacked.

Not saying it was the old guitars but something pushed us. My fingers though felt like hamburger the next day.
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  #41  
Old 03-11-2019, 04:32 AM
AndrewG AndrewG is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toby Walker View Post


I’ve owned them all - from a 1908 Gibson L-1, a ’28 Stromberg, to a 1935 Gibson L-00 in VG condition, a ’34 Stella, even a ’60’s Harmony H-165 - the same model that Mance Lipscomb used to play - and just about everything in between. I still have a ’30 National Triolian which I keep around for sentimental purposes. It’s a great guitar with killer tone but the intonation is way off. While those old guitars are cool to look at and have a sound of their own, I’ve long since switched over to the newer models for a number of reasons.

First and foremost, I believe that you can play the Blues on virtually ANY guitar. Music will always be in the hands of the player and standing unplayed on a stand, a guitar only is as cool as in the eye of the beholder.

That being said, I think there are some reasons why some Blues guitarists go for the older guitars - regardless of whether they’re the price of a Timex or a Buick. For one, they look the part. There’s a certain ‘mojoistic’ quality that goes along with playing the Blues on a beat up guitar. A lot of players buy into that sort of thing.

Another reason is the sound. No doubt about it, those older instruments have a sound that, at least to my ears so far, simply hasn’t been replicated in the newer models. It’s easy enough to explain: the wood has aged nearly 80 to 100 years and no amount of ‘torificatiion’ or ‘ToneRighting’ is going to reproduce that tone. Some come mighty close, but to a discriminating ear, not close enough.

Here’s the rub: those older players that some modern players want to imitate all used relatively newly built guitars, many less than 5 to 10 years old. And once they could afford better models, many - but not all - graduated from those Harmonys and Stellas to Martins and Gibsons. So the ‘tone’ that they produced on those recordings, be it from the 20’s or the 60’s were all done on recently built guitars. Not to mention that each individual player had their own personal, physical attack, which is impossible to replicate at 100%.

The problems the modern day player may face with those older models is A) the condition they are in and B) their playability. While many of the vintage instruments I’ve purchased over the years were in G to VG condition - due to skilled luthiers who brought them back to life - there were also a number of them whose issues were needed to be addressed. Even then, there was the inherent issues of the original design - specifically of extremely thick necks - which made those guitars a bit difficult to play.

I discussed this subject at length with a colleague of mine - Catfish Keith. He’s an amazing traditional, professional Blues guitarist who performs regularly all around the world. While Keith, like myself, has owned and played numerous vintage model instruments, the ones he relies on all the time are faithful recreations of those old time models. We both came up with the same reasons for our choices.

First off, they sound great. There is simply no mistaking the sound of a superb sounding National. The folks out in California have recreated those instruments in amazing detail, and the cones - which produce most of the tone - have been scrupulously perfected over the years. Even the Waterloo line from Collings has that unmistakable dry, woody tone, so inherent of those old time instruments. Let’s not forget the smaller builders like Mike Hauver and Todd Cambino, who have truly captured that vintage sound of the Stellas.

The second reason for choosing them is their overall build and playability. My Polychrome 2017 National not only much better intonation than any older National that I’ve played, but it comes with an adjustable truss rod which is mighty handy if your instrument is being subjected to various environmental changes. My Dell Arte 12 string comes with a compensated saddle, making for a very finely intonnated instrument. And these days if you don’t like a strong V shaped neck you can always opt for a comfortable C shape.

On a budget? There are plenty of great guitars to be had these days for around $1,000 and under, all suitable for picking the Blues in the hands of a capable player. I thought nothing of bringing out an Eastman or a Yamaha on stage with me, right alongside my National Tri-Cone.

In conclusion, it’s really all up to the individual player as to which type of guitar they choose to play the Blues on. This is, after all, a completely subjective choice. Just know that there are other fine choices out there that will do more than suit your needs.

Many Jazz greats (the late Ted Greene for example), use the humble Telecaster rather than an ES175 or L5. It's about the music, what it evokes and not the tool used to create it. Kenny Burrell is equally at home playing Jazz on a classical guitar as on a big Gibson hollow body. I'm all for avoiding cliches wherever possible; for example you can guarantee your average Bluegrass festival is going to produce flocks of predictable D-18 and D-28 Martins, because...but Bluegrass on a Yamaha *shudders*? Mac Wiseman certainly bucked the Martin trend!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AU4S3G4_rJo
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Last edited by AndrewG; 03-11-2019 at 04:41 AM.
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  #42  
Old 03-11-2019, 08:40 AM
bluesfreek bluesfreek is offline
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Here's a blues tune played on a "vintage" Taylor 114.



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  #43  
Old 03-11-2019, 11:13 AM
dneal dneal is offline
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Once the strings get old enough, they all sound about the same.
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