Expensive vintage or cheap guitars - the Blues guitar myth.

[AndrewG]

Originally Posted by Toby Walker

I’ve owned them all - from a 1908 Gibson L-1, a ’28 Stromberg, to a 1935 Gibson L-00 in VG condition, a ’34 Stella, even a ’60’s Harmony H-165 - the same model that Mance Lipscomb used to play - and just about everything in between. I still have a ’30 National Triolian which I keep around for sentimental purposes. It’s a great guitar with killer tone but the intonation is way off. While those old guitars are cool to look at and have a sound of their own, I’ve long since switched over to the newer models for a number of reasons.

First and foremost, I believe that you can play the Blues on virtually ANY guitar. Music will always be in the hands of the player and standing unplayed on a stand, a guitar only is as cool as in the eye of the beholder.

That being said, I think there are some reasons why some Blues guitarists go for the older guitars - regardless of whether they’re the price of a Timex or a Buick. For one, they look the part. There’s a certain ‘mojoistic’ quality that goes along with playing the Blues on a beat up guitar. A lot of players buy into that sort of thing.

Another reason is the sound. No doubt about it, those older instruments have a sound that, at least to my ears so far, simply hasn’t been replicated in the newer models. It’s easy enough to explain: the wood has aged nearly 80 to 100 years and no amount of ‘torificatiion’ or ‘ToneRighting’ is going to reproduce that tone. Some come mighty close, but to a discriminating ear, not close enough.

Here’s the rub: those older players that some modern players want to imitate all used relatively newly built guitars, many less than 5 to 10 years old. And once they could afford better models, many - but not all - graduated from those Harmonys and Stellas to Martins and Gibsons. So the ‘tone’ that they produced on those recordings, be it from the 20’s or the 60’s were all done on recently built guitars. Not to mention that each individual player had their own personal, physical attack, which is impossible to replicate at 100%.

The problems the modern day player may face with those older models is A) the condition they are in and B) their playability. While many of the vintage instruments I’ve purchased over the years were in G to VG condition - due to skilled luthiers who brought them back to life - there were also a number of them whose issues were needed to be addressed. Even then, there was the inherent issues of the original design - specifically of extremely thick necks - which made those guitars a bit difficult to play.

I discussed this subject at length with a colleague of mine - Catfish Keith. He’s an amazing traditional, professional Blues guitarist who performs regularly all around the world. While Keith, like myself, has owned and played numerous vintage model instruments, the ones he relies on all the time are faithful recreations of those old time models. We both came up with the same reasons for our choices.

First off, they sound great. There is simply no mistaking the sound of a superb sounding National. The folks out in California have recreated those instruments in amazing detail, and the cones - which produce most of the tone - have been scrupulously perfected over the years. Even the Waterloo line from Collings has that unmistakable dry, woody tone, so inherent of those old time instruments. Let’s not forget the smaller builders like Mike Hauver and Todd Cambino, who have truly captured that vintage sound of the Stellas.

The second reason for choosing them is their overall build and playability. My Polychrome 2017 National not only much better intonation than any older National that I’ve played, but it comes with an adjustable truss rod which is mighty handy if your instrument is being subjected to various environmental changes. My Dell Arte 12 string comes with a compensated saddle, making for a very finely intonnated instrument. And these days if you don’t like a strong V shaped neck you can always opt for a comfortable C shape.

On a budget? There are plenty of great guitars to be had these days for around $1,000 and under, all suitable for picking the Blues in the hands of a capable player. I thought nothing of bringing out an Eastman or a Yamaha on stage with me, right alongside my National Tri-Cone.

In conclusion, it’s really all up to the individual player as to which type of guitar they choose to play the Blues on. This is, after all, a completely subjective choice. Just know that there are other fine choices out there that will do more than suit your needs.

Speaking of great players here is my late friend, Sam Mitchell, whose demons sadly got to him far too young: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K20ST5Eksz4
And a favourite little piece of whimsy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jb4Egh4AUz8

[Goat Mick]

Another big component of the tone you're hearing on the old recordings is that the cheap guitars they could get their hands on was also being recorded on some VERY lo-fi recording equipment. You're never going to match that combination today. Find a guitar that feels and plays good to you, pick one with a nice dry, thumpy tone and play through the darkest parts of your life. It's a feel that a lot of folks can imitate but few can totally reproduce. It's all in the fingers and the soul.

[catfish]

Originally Posted by Goat Whiskey Picks

Another big component of the tone you're hearing on the old recordings is that the cheap guitars they could get their hands on was also being recorded on some VERY lo-fi recording equipment. You're never going to match that combination today.

Watch American Epic series on PBS, part 4 ("Sessions"), you'll see that it is possible. Thanx to Jack White and some wizard engineer. They use original recording machine from the 1920-ies - not powered by electricity.

[fazool]

Thanks Toby for providing that true-ecxpert perspective.

I deplore the whole concept of relic-ing a guitar and guitar "mojo" and the 'mystique' that surrounds old instruments just because they are old.

You're right about the condition issue with vintage. I've played a lot of vintage acoustics and never bought any of them because they tend to either be a bit of a hot mess or looking like they will be soon. If something that looks like it has been in Grandma Mather's basement in North Dakota since 1910 enduring arctic/tropical swings in temperature, mice, and spiders is 5k, I'll just use that money to buy a Collings or Santa Cruz. It won't sound the same of course, but you said it yourself, Blues can be played on anything. It really is more a matter of hitting the right notes, using the right cadence and having a feel for the tone you're producing. Any mellower sounding guitar should suffice.

[zombywoof]

Many of the players could afford pretty much any guitar they wanted. Son House recalled he could make $90 a session which was more than he could earn working the fields in a year. He also stated popular artists such as Charley Patton could make quite a bit more. H. C. Speir who ran a music store and recording studio on Farish Street in Jackson, MS and who served as a "talent scout" for the race record labels, once recalled Memphis Minnnie and Kansas Joe McCoy blowing into town in a brand new convertible car toting the first National Tricones anyone in the state had seen. He, however, also recalled that the players did have a preference for the Schmidt guitars because they sounded good and held up to life on the road.

[1Charlie]

I tend to take an opposing view regarding the playability of old blues guitars.

The ones I have had in my hands (including the two I currently own, a '31 Gibson L-0 and a '34 Martin 0-17) can be wonderful players after a little tinkering by a good luthier.

I have sold all but one of my modern boutique guitars in favor of these old blues boxes, because their tone is simply better.

[DukeX]

Thanks, Toby. Timely thread. I think I am heading in this Blues Box direction.

So many good choices...

[jpd]

My vintage starts at 2010

[cu4life7]

These type of posts are so refreshing and I think we need to keep these things in mind. As we search for a sound that we hear on some old recording, we forget that the people making that sound were likely using the best gear they could afford at the time and it often evolved over time as they upgraded (which I think we can all relate to). Vintage guitars have their charms to be sure, but modern guitars are phenomenal.

I think it also important to keep in mind some genres are not as gear depended as others, and blues in particular seems so much more about the player and their personal style than it does about the gear used. We could all probably be reminded that trying to copy the tone and style of others exactly completely demolishes our own individuality and personal style. Find a guitar that you love, and be yourself. No gear will make you sound like your hero.

[Silly Moustache]

Originally Posted by AndrewG

Speaking of great players here is my late friend, Sam Mitchell, whose demons sadly got to him far too young: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K20ST5Eksz4
And a favourite little piece of whimsy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jb4Egh4AUz8

Hi Andy, thanks for reminding me of Sam - I can't say I was friends with him, but I remember him knocking the crowd sideways with his slick playing. I think t was mainly at the Twickenham Blues club - when it was near Twickenham TV studios was it the Crown in Richmond Road?
I played with Jo-Ann Kelly there one night.
Sam always looked so young - surprised to find out he was only two years younger than me! Sad loss!
Do you remember Skyport Ade ?

[ALBD]

Originally Posted by fazool

Thanks Toby for providing that true-ecxpert perspective.

I deplore the whole concept of relic-ing a guitar and guitar "mojo" and the 'mystique' that surrounds old instruments just because they are old.

I have heard all the reasons some people don't like relics. I can understand that. But I'm curious, why do you "deplore" the concept of mojo and mystique of a vintage guitar?

[Silly Moustache]

Originally Posted by Toby Walker

I’ve owned them all - from a 1908 Gibson L-1, a ’28 Stromberg, to a 1935 Gibson L-00 in VG condition, a ’34 Stella, even a ’60’s Harmony H-165 - the same model that Mance Lipscomb used to play - and just about everything in between. I still have a ’30 National Triolian which I keep around for sentimental purposes. It’s a great guitar with killer tone but the intonation is way off. While those old guitars are cool to look at and have a sound of their own, I’ve long since switched over to the newer models for a number of reasons.

First and foremost, I believe that you can play the Blues on virtually ANY guitar. Music will always be in the hands of the player and standing unplayed on a stand, a guitar only is as cool as in the eye of the beholder.

That being said, I think there are some reasons why some Blues guitarists go for the older guitars - regardless of whether they’re the price of a Timex or a Buick. For one, they look the part. There’s a certain ‘mojoistic’ quality that goes along with playing the Blues on a beat up guitar. A lot of players buy into that sort of thing.

Another reason is the sound. No doubt about it, those older instruments have a sound that, at least to my ears so far, simply hasn’t been replicated in the newer models. It’s easy enough to explain: the wood has aged nearly 80 to 100 years and no amount of ‘torificatiion’ or ‘ToneRighting’ is going to reproduce that tone. Some come mighty close, but to a discriminating ear, not close enough.

Here’s the rub: those older players that some modern players want to imitate all used relatively newly built guitars, many less than 5 to 10 years old. And once they could afford better models, many - but not all - graduated from those Harmonys and Stellas to Martins and Gibsons. So the ‘tone’ that they produced on those recordings, be it from the 20’s or the 60’s were all done on recently built guitars. Not to mention that each individual player had their own personal, physical attack, which is impossible to replicate at 100%.

The problems the modern day player may face with those older models is A) the condition they are in and B) their playability. While many of the vintage instruments I’ve purchased over the years were in G to VG condition - due to skilled luthiers who brought them back to life - there were also a number of them whose issues were needed to be addressed. Even then, there was the inherent issues of the original design - specifically of extremely thick necks - which made those guitars a bit difficult to play.

I discussed this subject at length with a colleague of mine - Catfish Keith. He’s an amazing traditional, professional Blues guitarist who performs regularly all around the world. While Keith, like myself, has owned and played numerous vintage model instruments, the ones he relies on all the time are faithful recreations of those old time models. We both came up with the same reasons for our choices.

First off, they sound great. There is simply no mistaking the sound of a superb sounding National. The folks out in California have recreated those instruments in amazing detail, and the cones - which produce most of the tone - have been scrupulously perfected over the years. Even the Waterloo line from Collings has that unmistakable dry, woody tone, so inherent of those old time instruments. Let’s not forget the smaller builders like Mike Hauver and Todd Cambino, who have truly captured that vintage sound of the Stellas.

The second reason for choosing them is their overall build and playability. My Polychrome 2017 National not only much better intonation than any older National that I’ve played, but it comes with an adjustable truss rod which is mighty handy if your instrument is being subjected to various environmental changes. My Dell Arte 12 string comes with a compensated saddle, making for a very finely intonnated instrument. And these days if you don’t like a strong V shaped neck you can always opt for a comfortable C shape.

On a budget? There are plenty of great guitars to be had these days for around $1,000 and under, all suitable for picking the Blues in the hands of a capable player. I thought nothing of bringing out an Eastman or a Yamaha on stage with me, right alongside my National Tri-Cone.

In conclusion, it’s really all up to the individual player as to which type of guitar they choose to play the Blues on. This is, after all, a completely subjective choice. Just know that there are other fine choices out there that will do more than suit your needs.

Hi Toby, et al, Essentially, I agree with you.

My "thing" is guitars designed before 1934. The wider necks, the 12 fret designs, etc. However as I couldn't afford pre-war instruments or their maintenance I have sought modern makers who make instruments in the "image" of those old designs - Martin Original dreads, 00 and 000 designs and Gibson L-1s ,L-2 L-oo and Roy Smeck designs -as well as my one vintage '34 L-4 archtop.

I'm not a blues player as such but I'm very interested in the blues players that influenced so many of us and those inspiring names were, I believe, relatively poor itinerant musicians who traveled light and played whatever they could find. In fact the only Martin players that I can recall now was Big Bill Broonzy and Josh White but I'm sure there were more if they got published and promoted.
'm sure that most played Stellas,Kays etc., unless they could find Kalamazoos or Cromwells etc.

[Mr. Jelly]

Personally I go for a combination of the way a guitar sounds for what I want to do plus the way it feels. I don't try and mimic anybody. I learned along time ago on Les Paul's that if you want to play guitar get a good guitar not an old worn out guitar to refurbish. The vibe is in the sound not the hardware.

[frankmcr]

My two favorite guitars are Kalamazoo flattops, a 1932 KG-11 and a 1938 Sport Model.

They are great guitars, and that's no myth.