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  #31  
Old 07-12-2018, 01:56 PM
jonfields45 jonfields45 is offline
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Originally Posted by NoodleFingers View Post
Here's a picture I found of a CH OM for sale online:



Now I'm wondering if they've changed the fabric or the molding process somehow for the unidirectional tops. I know Leviora uses a proprietary weave they call "Dragonbone." It has a noticeably different texture than plain straight fibers.

Has RainSong possibly done something similar to add a bit of visual interest to their unidirectional tops?
My CH-WS (not my CH-PA) comes closer to that look. Unidirectional CF fabric has a fiber running 90 degrees off the CF fiber. Otherwise it would just fall apart prior to cure. I think what we are seeing is manufacturing variation that is inherent to that type of material. Ideally RainSong would hold back the more extreme cases for solid color tops. Or maybe ideally they would hold them back for clear tops. Hard to know what to do... Is curly maple defective?
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  #32  
Old 07-12-2018, 02:33 PM
bsman bsman is offline
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I'm wondering if perhaps we haven't fallen into a bit of a trap - figuring that because carbon fiber is manmade it is necessarily 100% uniform. After reading this post, I pulled out my Shorty and took a good look at the top, back and sides. On the top (unidirectional CF), there are some little individual fibers running across the grain (sort of analogous to bearclaw on spruce), and there is a definite line about 1/2 inch in from the sides that goes all the way around the top. On the sides and back there are some small imperfections in the otherwise uniform chevron pattern of the composite material. Since it all feels smooth and plays fantastically, I'm cool with all of that, since I bought it to play and not as an object d'arte.
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  #33  
Old 07-12-2018, 02:35 PM
steelvibe steelvibe is offline
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..... and they do sound fabulous, especially the Shorty, the CH series and the WS1005NS.
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  #34  
Old 07-12-2018, 07:56 PM
pax238 pax238 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonfields45 View Post
My CH-WS (not my CH-PA) comes closer to that look. Unidirectional CF fabric has a fiber running 90 degrees off the CF fiber. Otherwise it would just fall apart prior to cure. I think what we are seeing is manufacturing variation that is inherent to that type of material. Ideally RainSong would hold back the more extreme cases for solid color tops. Or maybe ideally they would hold them back for clear tops. Hard to know what to do... Is curly maple defective?
Thanks. Your post encouraged me to take a look for some photos, and I found these comparisons of woven vs. unidirectional carbon fiber fabrics.





Dare I say that with the unidirectional fabric oriented in the right direction, it could look (maybe... perhaps... if I squinted in the right way) wood-like. Of course, that may not be the best orientation for this application.

Asking if curly maple is defective, and bsman's comment that "there are some little individual fibers running across the grain (sort of analogous to bearclaw on spruce)" also encouraged me to think about what I like in a wood top. A nice, even, tight grain is right at the top of the list (and I'm OK with some mild silking), but bear claw is not. Hmm...
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Last edited by pax238; 07-12-2018 at 08:31 PM.
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  #35  
Old 07-12-2018, 08:34 PM
pax238 pax238 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoodleFingers View Post
Here's a picture I found of a CH OM for sale online:



Now I'm wondering if they've changed the fabric or the molding process somehow for the unidirectional tops. I know Leviora uses a proprietary weave they call "Dragonbone." It has a noticeably different texture than plain straight fibers.

Has RainSong possibly done something similar to add a bit of visual interest to their unidirectional tops?
Yowza! That's pretty extreme "visual interest" in my books.

Here's a photo of my Eastman T184MX Lil Smokey that'll give you an idea of my preferences when it comes to black guitars.

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Last edited by pax238; 07-12-2018 at 08:51 PM.
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  #36  
Old 07-13-2018, 03:52 AM
Finger Stylish Finger Stylish is offline
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I'm thinking it's more in the Carbon layers beneath the finish. I bet you can't feel anything but smooth when you rub your hand on the top. My HDR 1000 has some noticeable visual things on the top but not at all noticeable to the touch.
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  #37  
Old 07-13-2018, 08:05 AM
jonfields45 jonfields45 is offline
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Just to add to the discussion... If you look at a CH top with just the right light at just the right angle, you will see a very faint classic RainSong 3x3 twill pattern. Given how the top is built up, CF-spacer-CF, and that the spacer is relatively light and weaker, it is not practical to have one of the CF layers have no tensile strength in one orientation. I suspect they put a light layer of twill underneath the unidirectional layer for the outer CF layer build up.
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  #38  
Old 07-13-2018, 08:51 AM
NoodleFingers NoodleFingers is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonfields45 View Post
Just to add to the discussion... If you look at a CH top with just the right light at just the right angle, you will see a very faint classic RainSong 3x3 twill pattern. Given how the top is built up, CF-spacer-CF, and that the spacer is relatively light and weaker, it is not practical to have one of the CF layers have no tensile strength in one orientation. I suspect they put a light layer of twill underneath the unidirectional layer for the outer CF layer build up.
I've never heard of a spacer layer being used in the tops before. Do you know what it's made of?
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  #39  
Old 07-13-2018, 09:15 AM
pax238 pax238 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finger Stylish View Post
I'm thinking it's more in the Carbon layers beneath the finish. I bet you can't feel anything but smooth when you rub your hand on the top.
That's correct (apologies if that wasn't clear in my first post).
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Last edited by pax238; 07-13-2018 at 10:35 AM.
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  #40  
Old 07-13-2018, 10:20 AM
rob2966 rob2966 is offline
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My CH-PA doesn't really show any of that "pitting" either. The only real noticeable "change" in the top is where it is glued to the body flange. You can see that transition in the right light. Anyway, looks like your going to be taken well care of by a great company with a great product.

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  #41  
Old 07-13-2018, 10:36 AM
pax238 pax238 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rob2966 View Post
My CH-PA doesn't really show any of that "pitting" either. The only real noticeable "change" in the top is where it is glued to the body flange. You can see that transition in the right light. Anyway, looks like your going to be taken well care of by a great company with a great product.

Later
Rob
Thanks Rob. That's what I'm hoping for in the replacement (I see that joint line is common in Rainsongs). BTW, how old is your CH-PA? Some are saying that this "pitting" is a recent development (in CH models with the small sharks at the 12th fret).
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  #42  
Old 07-13-2018, 12:27 PM
rob2966 rob2966 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pax238 View Post
Thanks Rob. That's what I'm hoping for in the replacement (I see that joint line is common in Rainsongs). BTW, how old is your CH-PA? Some are saying that this "pitting" is a recent development (in CH models with the small sharks at the 12th fret).
Less than a year old, got mine December of last year

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  #43  
Old 07-13-2018, 01:56 PM
jonfields45 jonfields45 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoodleFingers View Post
I've never heard of a spacer layer being used in the tops before. Do you know what it's made of?
Similar to corrugated cardboard, Nomex honeycomb in a double topped wooden acoustic, or for that matter even an I-beam; to get maximum strength to weight, you separate the good stuff with a lighter spacer. RainSong's choice is proprietary. That line you see along the top perimeter and soundhole is where the spacer has been deleted and the inner and outer layers of CF are bonded directly together. They do this partly for acoustic reasons, similar to the relief route in a Taylor top, and partly for good design reasons (to prevent delamination and keep moisture out of the spacer).
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  #44  
Old 07-13-2018, 01:58 PM
pax238 pax238 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rob2966 View Post
Less than a year old, got mine December of last year

Later
Rob
Does it have the small sharks inlay at the 12th fret of the fingerboard?
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  #45  
Old 07-13-2018, 02:00 PM
jonfields45 jonfields45 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pax238 View Post
Does it have the small sharks inlay at the 12th fret of the fingerboard?
No sharks in my CH-PA (Aug-17) or CH-WS (Jan-18). The WS was custom ordered from LAGS with no pickup so I assume it was fresh stock at the time.
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