Achieving low action, plays like butter

[LiveMusic]

The guitar that slayed me the most upon playing it was a Martin D41 that I saw at a Guitar Center, of all places. Several years ago, it was in a 'high end' room or bookcase and I asked to see it. I couldn't believe it! It played like butter. Not only that, it sounded great. I didn't have the three grand it cost, else I would have it today. (It was brand new.) These years later, after I got successful again, lol, now, I have an enviable guitar collection.

My question is... that guitar was so amazing, it's worth seeking a similar setup. I say that because I could play so effortlessly, I played BETTER. It was amazing. So, how can I get this? None of my guitars are like that and probably 85% are high-quality guitars. I know it's all in the setup, but ya know... do you just take guitars one by one and hope for the best until you find one that ends up like that? I even bought a used D41, knowing it would need a neck reset (and got a lowered price), had the neck reset and it's nothing like that other guitar. Granted, I may not have told the tech "get it as low as you can." So, do you think I could just take my D41 and describe it as above and say, go to it, Mr. Techie! I can get it done in Nashville. Or just keep trying on these others? I have many Gibsons, Martins, Guilds, Taylor, Collings, Santa Cruz, Washburn, Takamine, etc.

BTW, I played a beatup Takamine years ago that played effortlessly, shoulda bought it, too, lol.

It boils down to I'd like to get that again, how? So awesome!

[bluesfreek]

Sure low action as you describe can be achieved. Just bring your guitar to be setup to a competent Luthier or tech and explain what you want. Obtaining extremely low buzz free action is a combination of perfectly cut nut slots, perfectly level and crowned frets and proper saddle height with good break angle. Of course the neck angle should be good too.

[rokdog49]

In my experience a good tech can give you a great setup that will improve your guitar's playability. Whether it will play like butter...maybe.
Having said that, I have played a few guitars that were awesome and played like butter right off the rack. One was a Boucher OM that was just incredible. Never found another like it.

[v32 finish]

OK, so... I'm no expert here, first off, so take this all with a grain of salt.

BUT . It sounds like we have one of a couple different things going on here. The first thing that came to my mind, is the *textbook* definition/example of "The One". There are COUNTLESS stories contained within these pages of the AGF of people who somehow came across The One -- flawless, perfect, undeniably better than anything else that came before it. One strum, and the skies split apart; somewhere within the fragmented energy of the universe, angles are singing. The vibration is impossible to explain. Sometimes you just *know*.

Just the same, there are MANY who have (like you, like me) have come across The One and for whatever reason - financial, logistics, etc etc... were unable to obtain that guitar. The results of this are painful.. and often, can be accompanied by a particular "haunted" feeling.

That's my guess, and the first and most obvious scenario that popped into my head. Another possibility, though less likely, is that of Changing Expectations. I've also seen cases (myself included), where.. someone plays or owns a guitar when they are younger or "earlier" in their guitar journey. It makes an impact on them. Perhaps they haven't experienced the other multitude of guitars and their different levels of excellence. They go on, and on, and a piece of them is always chasing that guitar. I went so far as to purchase several different models of the same guitar, ever chasing. My expectations were high . This was the guitar that blew me away, right?! And yet.. each time I received that same guitar, or a similar one just like it... it just wasn't the same.

Both of these stories illustrate perfectly why the conventional wisdom amongst us guitar geeks and others like us, is to try your hardest to *be ready* when an opportunity presents itself. If you "go home to think about it", or "sleep on it, and come back the next day" -- chances are HIGH that guitar will no longer be hanging there.

Of course, this isn't feasible sometimes; we can't buy EVERY guitar that moves us. But if there's one that REALLY makes an impact on you.. you should do everything in your power to get it, or it might haunt you. If you can't, then. . no big deal. Don't mourn over it, but remember it for what it is. And also be aware that the fact that you DIDN'T get it (and it might be haunting you) can make it seem *even better* in your mind, so.. don't compare every single guitar you ever play to that gold standard, or at least, be aware that this kind of thing exists.


Okay, I have to apologize for ranting and raving.. I feel like I really went off the deep end there. At ANY rate.. a setup is crucial, and a good tech can make a WORLD of difference, especially playability wise. But they still can't change the SOUL of a guitar. I would advise that you definitely try to get your current guitar(s) playing to their very best potential, but if they don't MOVE you? If you play something slowly and deliberately and it doesn't GRAB you right there in the chest? It may be time to think about trying to get one in the future that does. It's kind of like falling in love -- you just know.

Anyways, again, my apologies for the long-winded-ness. Just be patient and trust your gut. it won't lead you astray. ALSO, I know that most people already know all of this, so.. please don't take offense if I'm not saying anything that you don't already know. Your post just hit very close to home and reminded me of a couple situations that I've been in myself!

Cheers & good luck
Scott

[vindibona1]

Originally Posted by bluesfreek

Sure low action as you describe can be achieved. Just bring your guitar to be setup to a competent Luthier or tech and explain what you want. Obtaining extremely low buzz free action is a combination of perfectly cut nut slots, perfectly level and crowned frets and proper saddle height with good break angle. Of course the neck angle should be good too.

Don't forget neck relief. Super important if you're after low action. Too much and it will be less easy on the hands. Too little and the guitar will lose its mojo.

[LiveMusic]

Originally Posted by bluesfreek

Sure low action as you describe can be achieved. Just bring your guitar to be setup to a competent Luthier or tech and explain what you want. Obtaining extremely low buzz free action is a combination of perfectly cut nut slots, perfectly level and crowned frets and proper saddle height with good break angle. Of course the neck angle should be good too.

Let me ask this... taking it to a competent luthier... would he be able to tell after examining a guitar if it's a good candidate? "No, not this one, what else you got?" I have a number of great guitars. They play fine but they don't play like butter.

EDIT: I thought I would add this. When I am in Nashville, I often spend hours at a place like Gruhns or Carters. I play LOTS of guitars. NONE have been like I described. I assume that they just don't set them up like that. I bet if they would, they'd sell more. Not all of them, but, say, set up 25% of the stock with very low action. I know, I know, some heavier handed strummers will slap strings. But, the ones who the guitar fits, it's heaven.

[v32 finish]

Ok, so.. the first reply that I just posted? It still applies and everything, but.. you've piqued my curiosity, now. The fact that you might spend hours at a place like Gruhns or Carter's confirms that you are no stranger to a great guitar, so.. if, then, that's the case, then WHAT is the element that is "missing" ? What is it that the D41 had, that *all* of these other great didn't have? (this is what makes it even more interesting to me. and in hindsight I guess to a true guitar geek of any kind, my last post was pretty much stating the obvious).

Anyway, I'd love to hear others' thoughts on this.

For clarification: when you say that it "played like butter" and when you describe the quality of this guitar, are you talking 100% about the *playability* and the feeling of the guitar? Or are you talking about the tone / sound as well? Just trying to narrow it down a little bit, because.. I'm surprised that NO other guitar you've *ever* played has ever "had it". Surprised, and not surprised. I had a similar experience at Fuller's Guitar.. I must have played 20 or 30 *great*, high end guitars.. and I actually had money in my pocket.. I was there to buy (or put a big deposit down, at the very least) ... and nothing grabbed me. So, I do understand. but.. sometimes, even great guitars, just "don't have it". I left there kind of deflated.

anyways, just wanted to post again because your further clarification kind of got me thinking, and most of all, curious whether you're talking 100% playability, or a combination of the whole (playing like butter, tone/sound, etc etc.)

SC

[rokdog49]

Originally Posted by LiveMusic

Let me ask this... taking it to a competent luthier... would he be able to tell after examining a guitar if it's a good candidate? "No, not this one, what else you got?" I have a number of great guitars. They play fine but they don't play like butter.

EDIT: I thought I would add this. When I am in Nashville, I often spend hours at a place like Gruhns or Carters. I play LOTS of guitars. NONE have been like I described. I assume that they just don't set them up like that. I bet if they would, they'd sell more. Not all of them, but, say, set up 25% of the stock with very low action. I know, I know, some heavier handed strummers will slap strings. But, the ones who the guitar fits, it's heaven.

First of all, some guitars just have the "it" factor when it comes to playability.
When a guitar is setup with low action, there are many possible negatives.
Most dealers are willing to do a setup on a purchased guitar, but to assign low action to a guitar for the purpose of a sale does not necessarily float everybody's boat as the whole "action" thing is arbitrary anyway.
The action on my J45 is a tad higher than I would like but I will take the tone I'm getting rather than risk it for better action.

[LiveMusic]

Originally Posted by v32 finish

Ok, so.. the first reply that I just posted? It still applies and everything, but.. you've piqued my curiosity, now. The fact that you might spend hours at a place like Gruhns or Carter's confirms that you are no stranger to a great guitar, so.. if, then, that's the case, then WHAT is the element that is "missing" ? What is it that the D41 had, that *all* of these other great didn't have? (this is what makes it even more interesting to me. and in hindsight I guess to a true guitar geek of any kind, my last post was pretty much stating the obvious).

Anyway, I'd love to hear others' thoughts on this.

For clarification: when you say that it "played like butter" and when you describe the quality of this guitar, are you talking 100% about the *playability* and the feeling of the guitar? Or are you talking about the tone / sound as well? Just trying to narrow it down a little bit, because.. I'm surprised that NO other guitar you've *ever* played has ever "had it". Surprised, and not surprised. I had a similar experience at Fuller's Guitar.. I must have played 20 or 30 *great*, high end guitars.. and I actually had money in my pocket.. I was there to buy (or put a big deposit down, at the very least) ... and nothing grabbed me. So, I do understand. but.. sometimes, even great guitars, just "don't have it". I left there kind of deflated.

anyways, just wanted to post again because your further clarification kind of got me thinking, and most of all, curious whether you're talking 100% playability, or a combination of the whole (playing like butter, tone/sound, etc etc.)

SC

I am talking mostly about playability. The tone was fine but my fingers just flew over that fretboard. And I am not that good. I am a singer-songwriter type. Good rhythm guitar player and do just fine supporting my vocal but really not that good compared to a bazillion other players. I impress some people (average Joe or Joanie) but I know better. Any kid working at guitar center can play circles around me. I don't play lead. I play lots of bass notes and extra fill notes with my chords. Kind of a chord-melody thing I guess. And the 'plays like butter' made it effortless. No exaggeration in my mind to say that I played 5-10% 'better' and to me, that is a lot. If you're playing a slow ballad, this is less important.

[LiveMusic]

Originally Posted by rokdog49

First of all, some guitars just have the "it" factor when it comes to playability.
When a guitar is setup with low action, there are many possible negatives.
Most dealers are willing to do a setup on a purchased guitar, but to assign low action to a guitar for the purpose of a sale does not necessarily float everybody's boat as the whole "action" thing is arbitrary anyway.
The action on my J45 is a tad higher than I would like but I will take the tone I'm getting rather than risk it for better action.

I'm going to disagree. I made the statement that I think they would sell even more guitars if they took a part of their stock and made the action low. I still stand by that. Case in point... over 15 years ago, I went into a guitar store after having not played for many years. I picked up a Taylor guitar in the 'high end' room and couldn't believe it. Never heard of Taylor at that time. I was floored how easy it was to play. I bought it and I didn't go in there to buy, I just went in because I hadn't played in a long time and was curious. The playability of that guitar compared to what I had known for decades sold me. And that guitar did not play like butter, but it played good.

[The Kid!]

Originally Posted by LiveMusic

I bet if they would, they'd sell more. Not all of them, but, say, set up 25% of the stock with very low action. I know, I know, some heavier handed strummers will slap strings. But, the ones who the guitar fits, it's heaven.

Setups are pretty personal. Not everybody wants the same action.

[zeeway]

Falling in love is...(wait for it)...a very personal thng. My wife is crazy for chocolate, while I can take it or leave it. There are so many variables in the appeal of a particular guitar, that one person may instantly connect to an instrument, and the next person says "meh." The quest for your next true love in guitars keeps life interesting.

Then again, my attempts at guitar philosophy are a lot like my playing. Both need a lot of improvement.

[AndrewG]

Whenever I'm shopping I go with the assumption that any guitar I encounter will need a setup to my preference, and they invariably do. I don't know about 'playing like butter' (whatever that means), but there's a compromise you have to make between ease of play, tone and volume, so get that juggling act right. Too low an action and the above will suffer; too high and it gets uncomfortable but sounds good...

[rokdog49]

Originally Posted by LiveMusic

I'm going to disagree. I made the statement that I think they would sell even more guitars if they took a part of their stock and made the action low. I still stand by that. Case in point... over 15 years ago, I went into a guitar store after having not played for many years. I picked up a Taylor guitar in the 'high end' room and couldn't believe it. Never heard of Taylor at that time. I was floored how easy it was to play. I bought it and I didn't go in there to buy, I just went in because I hadn't played in a long time and was curious. The playability of that guitar compared to what I had known for decades sold me. And that guitar did not play like butter, but it played good.

I understand, but that was "your experience " and Taylor's aren't the same as other guitars because of the bolt-on neck. Generally, they all play very easily.
There are setups and then there are setups. Everybody is different and so are playing styles etc.
My D18 played a little harder than I would have liked when I auditioned it,but it sounded so dang good I bought it and got it set up the way I wanted.
No big deal.

[Goodallboy]

Originally Posted by rokdog49

First of all, some guitars just have the "it" factor when it comes to playability.
When a guitar is setup with low action, there are many possible negatives.
Most dealers are willing to do a setup on a purchased guitar, but to assign low action to a guitar for the purpose of a sale does not necessarily float everybody's boat as the whole "action" thing is arbitrary anyway.
The action on my J45 is a tad higher than I would like but I will take the tone I'm getting rather than risk it for better action.

Thanks for injecting some needed info, rok.

Lowering the action for playability is going to reduce your volume and projection. This may be a good trade-off for you based on your skill level but not for all players. My guitar is not the easiest to play but it’s the baddest acoustic guitar I’ve ever played and the action is staying put.